Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2009

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses for joining us here today.

You said something that I found quite interesting, Mrs. Dallaire. You said that Quebec has already opted to open some early childhood centres. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are calling for direct federal transfers to the provinces so that they can assume responsibility for child care services.

How much help do you think you would need from the federal government to open early childhood centres?

[Jody Dallaire]

I just want to emphasize, because I didn't do so earlier, that our association recognizes that Quebec has taken the lead on this file, in terms of early childhood centres and direct program subsidies. Families pay only $7 a day for child care services. Our official position is that Quebec must continue to assume this leadership role and to secure funding without having to satisfy the same criteria as the other provinces.

The amount of funding is important. We are talking about a significant federal government investment. We have the ability to make that investment. Furthermore, we know that investment performance is important.

Performance criteria are as important as the funding. As mentioned earlier, several existing programs lack performance criteria to ensure that the money really is used to create child care spaces or to reduce the costs to parents, as is the case in Quebec. It is all well and good to create child care spaces, but if parents have no choice but to pay $30 or $40 a day for these services, then they may be out of reach. While the money is important, performance criteria are equally important.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Earlier, you said that child care services could cost between $30 and $40. Do you have any idea of what an average family might pay for child care? How much might they pay for private child care...

[Jody Dallaire]

In Canada, child care services can cost on average between $500 and $600 per month per child. In the case of a family with two children, the cost is approximately $12,000 a year. That is on par with a family's housing costs.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

There is quite a difference between that figure, and the $7 a day child care available in Quebec.

You also made a very interesting point, Ms. Clayton. As a student, I can clearly appreciate this reality.

Do you have any idea of the debt load a student here in this region carries?

[Shelley Clayton]

Yes. I actually happen to work in my key position at the University of New Brunswick, so do you want our regional average?

The regional average is in the high twenties. Our institution average is higher than that. We actually are in the high eighties; we're a high needs institution. So it's about $36,000 at the University of New Brunswick and approximately $29,000 in the region, and the overall Canadian average fluctuates between $20,000 and $22,000. So for sure, it is a return on investment, but it is a huge cost, and particularly in the Atlantic region you are bearing the cost on the student, for sure. In the Atlantic area they pay more.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

It is clear that the average debt load is greater here than it is in the rest of Canada. I have a question, even though I'm fairly certain of what the answer will be.

Do we have a big problem here in this region where students leave to pursue their education and don't return? Are we seeing a brain drain?

[Shelley Clayton]

In the province of New Brunswick, for sure, we do have what's called the brain drain. The province has implemented some positive measures, such as the tuition tax-back credit. As well, there's the timely debt completion program, which just started this year. Anything over and above $26,000 on your government student loan can be looked at for, in essence, loan forgiveness.

Are we worried about the brain drain? For sure. But with my own two children, would I keep them in the province? No. I would ensure that they had opportunities to excel wherever they chose to excel.

If we continue to make those great programs in the province of New Brunswick, I think we will continue to get people to stay. As an example, you know, of course, with Quebec's model, why your debt is not so high. You have far more of a grant access program in place, as they do in Ontario and many other regions. That's why in particularly the Atlantic region there is more loan debt; we don't have as much grant to displace the loan dollars.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

For two or three years now, the Bloc Québécois has been calling for a refundable tax credit. Young people who opt to leave the region in which they were born to study elsewhere would be entitled to a tax credit of approximately $8,000 if they return home once they have completed their education. This type of credit is already offered in Quebec. We suggested that a similar measure be brought in at the federal level.

Do you think a credit like this would bring young people back to the regions?

[Shelley Clayton]

I think it certainly would be of benefit in the province of New Brunswick if we went as high as $10,000. Other provinces have other resources available. But I think more than the tuition tax-back credit--as you know, it helps the people who are making more dollars, which means, in essence, that the more money you make, the more you get in the tuition tax-back credit--I think we have to have a program that's equal. If a student graduates from the child care program and they're making $25,000 to $30,000, they have to be able to access enough of this in order to stay.

In the province of Newfoundland, you can get a good portion of your debt forgiven if you are in a program that is high-cost but has lower unemployment upon completion.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

There would be...

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have only enough time left for a quick question.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That being the case, I will put my question directly to the representatives of the New Brunswick Federation of Labour. How do you feel about the elimination of the waiting period?

[Michel Boudreau]

The waiting period?

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'm referring to the two-week qualifying period for benefits.

[Michel Boudreau]

Naturally, we would like the waiting period to be eliminated. However, in addition, we would like to see a uniform entrance requirement of 360 hours of work across the country and to see benefits based on the best 12 weeks of earnings. But to answer your question, we think it would be a positive move.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We'll go to Mr. Allen, please.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses, and thank you for giving your testimony today. It's great to be here on the Island.

There are so many presentations and so much information, it's going to be hard to get some rapid-fire questions in here. However, I'd like to start with Mr. Walker.

You talked about the SR and EDs. I am very familiar with some of the manufacturing businesses in my riding that are having a heck of a hard time accessing the SR and EDs. Have you thought in detail about how that process could be improved? Have you talked with government departments with respect to making a proposal on how you could improve that process in order to turn it around? And what would be the optimum turnaround time for businesses to receive those SR and EDs--other than ASAP?

[Allison Walker]

With respect to what they're currently doing, if we had a program like this and we had these types of delays, we'd undertake a review and a strategic mapping to find out what's taking so long, what the steps are, and what's causing this. They seem to have no systematic approach to, first of all, how to find out what the problem is, and then how to fix it.

They have individual targets. If you file by amended return, they're supposed to process this within one year. Generally, you won't even get a letter within one year to say that they've acknowledged receiving it. It takes up to four or five years.

If they did a proper risk assessment on an initial filing, if they did that promptly within a month of receiving it, then ranked these files according to risk, and then actually put the resources to it.... Also, in terms of the resource question, if they actually had a program whereby industry could contribute people to their program, perhaps assigning them for a year, that would help their people. It would help their workload and it would also help cross-train their own science people.

That's a big problem. Their people just aren't adequately trained. Quite frankly, some of the best and brightest don't work there; they can't afford to work there. They work for industry or they work for the advisers. Anyone who's any good gets hired. They don't stay there. As a consequence, you end up with the people who are.... Well, you get the people you have there.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

It would seem to me that those process improvements could be done without a whole lot of cost to government, which would accelerate the dollars as well.

[David Plante]

If I may add to that, experience in industry has shown that a value stream mapping analysis can save up to 30% to 40%, so this is actually a cost-saving measure.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Now, as you did point out, too, on the cash and the refundable side of these, on cashing them out, you're right in that timing is all it is, unless the business doesn't make it, of course. Do you have any projections as to what upfront refund in the first couple of years you would have to pay? It might be in the brief a little bit later, but that is as opposed to cashflow later on, because it is purely a cashflow issue.

[Allison Walker]

Yes, it's clearly a cashflow issue if you're talking about how many dollars nationally would hit the budget. Is that it?

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Yes.