Finance Committee on Oct. 21st, 2009

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm not saying I deserve much. I just am asking that question.

[Wayne Samuelson]

I think you're probably going to do okay.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Wayne Samuelson]

I suspect that this will be one of the issues of debate. I think our proposal talks about phasing it in over time, so in effect the benefit would go to those who pay over time. It's similar to how we've done changes to CPP in the past.

In terms of the calculation about doubling the benefit and whether you in fact double the premium, we've done some research, and I think you're aware of this. I hope you are. If you aren't, I'm sure the Canadian Labour Congress can provide it. It would say that because of the effectiveness and efficiency of a national plan such as that one, there wouldn't necessarily be a doubling.

But I think there's probably a bigger issue here--

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

But I don't have time. I have more questions and limited time.

[Wayne Samuelson]

Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about three and a half minutes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Go ahead.

[Wayne Samuelson]

Okay. You wouldn't necessarily have to double it. Calculations have been done that say you wouldn't have to, but clearly you would have to phase it in. That's my point about saying that you need to make these decisions today in order to provide for tomorrow.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I totally agree. I think pensions are a huge issue. We're seeing it with all these stories in the Globe and so on. It's starting to come alive. I really agree with you. It's crucial for the country.

[Wayne Samuelson]

Thank you.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I now want to ask a question to Ms. Windsor, if I may.

Your second and third proposals I think I'm fine with, but I have a little problem with your first one, where you talk about the tax penalty implicit in the Income Tax Act in terms of copyright income.

If you go by the theory that a dollar is a dollar is a dollar as far as income is concerned, why is it a tax penalty implicit in the Income Tax Act when income from copyright is taxed? I would have thought, generally speaking, that any kind of income ought to be taxed.

[Deborah Windsor]

The income that a creator earns is so minuscule. Being self-employed, creators unfortunately don't have pensions, benefits, or even the ability to participate in EI, even if they pay through another job.

They have a very unbalanced schedule to start with. Then, when it comes to copyright income, they don't have adequate deductions to apply against it so they end up with peaks and valleys in their income. Also, their income is received in a fluctuating manner. The author of a book may take three years to write a book. That author will put in three years' work, will get an advance in the fourth year, and then will be taxed in that fourth year as if he or she had generated all of that income in one year.

By implementing a copyright income deduction program, you would be able to somewhat chop off the top--

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I can easily understand the case of income smoothing, but I still don't understand why you call it a tax penalty. I think you've achieved something similar to tax smoothing, which I would support—

[Deborah Windsor]

Yes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

—but I have trouble not with proposals numbers two and three but with the first one.

I'll ask Mr. Holgerson a question. I like your idea of encouraging federal government agencies to support youthful entrepreneurs. I wasn't aware that the Business Development Bank did that at all. Now, does it?

[Ronald Holgerson]

We searched the websites of all of those organizations, and there were opportunities in all of them for you to start a business. Whether it specifically does it for young entrepreneurs I was not able to determine in the information I've perused.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Maybe a good idea would be for the Business Development Bank to be encouraged to start up such a thing.

[Ronald Holgerson]

I would also—

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm certainly not aware that it's active in that area.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

We're going to go to Monsieur Laforest.

For those of you who require translation, there are headsets, and English is on channel 1.

Monsieur Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to all the witnesses.

I find that presentation particularly interesting. As you well know, we have been all across Canada; we have been to Vancouver, Edmonton and to several other cities. A number of groups have made presentations to the committee and to the government on various aspects of our social, economic and community life. But, on the matter of employment insurance, very specific proposals have been made along the same lines as Mr. Samuelson provided just now.

The noteworthy thing today is that a group like the Ontario Municipal Social Services Association, in a way, backs up what workers' representatives are saying. They are saying that, because the employment insurance program has not been reformed, and because it does not reach enough of the people living in very difficult circumstances, it affects many people in areas such as health, affordable housing and homelessness. People are having a great deal of difficulty because of the employment insurance program, as I said to a social development representative this morning. Half the people without jobs, if not a little more than half, are not eligible for employment insurance benefits.

I would like to hear your comments on that, Mr. Samuelson. Let us certainly not forget that, for the last 15 or 16 years, under both the Conservative government and the preceding Liberal government, the employment insurance program has been used to pay off Canada's deficit. Fifty-seven billion dollars has been taken from the fund. It is important for associations that are demanding improvements also to make proposals to serve as warnings to the government. They should say that the employment insurance fund must never again become a deficit insurance fund and that the deficit must not be paid off by the workers and employers who pay into the employment insurance fund.

I would like to hear your opinion on that, Mr. Samuelson.

[Wayne Samuelson]

Listen, I think that what happened is absolutely outrageous, that people took money from the fund that workers and employers had paid into.

As I said earlier, I travel a lot. I've travelled across this province. I've been into these small communities. People have come to me and they've talked about what it's doing to them. And they don't understand. You know, they've paid into this fund, some of them for years and years. And when they need it, it's not there for them.

I think it's tragic. If you sense any frustration in my voice, it's because we all know what needs to be done. We all know how to provide the benefits to these people who need them so badly. But it seems to me there doesn't appear to be the political courage to stand up and do it. And I feel so much for the people who are impacted.

I should point out to you—for me, it's a bit personal—about the plant I talked about, which they closed about three or four years ago, that half of those people still don't have jobs or they're going through temporary work agencies. They've run out their EI. They've spent their severance. They're now selling their homes. And I think it's outrageous that we just sit back and allow this to continue.

Thank you for your comments. I just ask the committee to deal with this.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Holgerson. I am not very familiar with the Ontario education system. I know the Quebec system much better, of course. It has both private colleges and public colleges. Is it the same here in Ontario? Is Mohawk College a private college? If so, how much do students have to pay to attend it?

[Ronald Holgerson]

There are 24 public colleges in Ontario that receive money from the province. There are also private colleges. Mohawk College is one of the 24 public colleges. The students pay tuition fees and the government provides scholarships for each student.