Evidence of meeting #58 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transit.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Natalie Bull  Executive Director, Heritage Canada Foundation
Ruth MacKenzie  President, Volunteer Canada
Ray Pekrul  Board Member, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Bernard Lord  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association
Michael Roschlau  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Urban Transit Association
Sailesh Thaker  Vice-President, Industry and Stakeholder Relations, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Steve Masnyk  Manager, Public Affairs, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada
Michael Toye  Executive Director, Canadian Community Economic Development Network
Jim Patrick  Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association
Moira Grant  Director of Research, Canadian Society for Medical Laboratory Science
Marlon Lewis  Member of the Board of Trustees, Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
Sophie Pierre  Chief Commissioner, British Columbia Treaty Commission
Karen Cohen  Executive Director, Canadian Psychological Association, Health Action Lobby (HEAL)
Iain Klugman  Chief Executive Officer and President, Communitech
Dennis Howlett  National Coordinator, Make Poverty History
Denise Doherty-Delorme  Section Head, Compensation and Policy Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Pamela Fralick  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association, Health Action Lobby (HEAL)

6:10 p.m.

Denise Doherty-Delorme Section Head, Compensation and Policy Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Thank you.

I'm here to talk to you about four things: public funding for science and technology, outsourcing of government services, the strategic expenditure review, and the Expenditure Restraint Act.

There is concern that the federal government is leaving itself without sufficient regulatory tools, expertise, and financial resources to deal with environmental, public health, and national security crises. Delegating responsibility in these areas to lower levels of government or the private sector is counterproductive. As an example, the 2008 listeriosis outbreak could have been prevented by a well-funded and well-staffed CFIA.

Only the federal government possesses the critical mass of scientific expertise necessary to adjust key health, safety, environmental, and security issues at the national level. Moreover, without a modern infrastructure and a well-educated, highly skilled workforce, Canada has little chance of remaining competitive in today's global marketplace. The work of federal scientists and researchers is the foundation on which university and private sector laboratories base their innovative work. All three must be adequately funded for the system to function well. We've heard other presentations here today stating the same thing. Furthermore, a robustly funded federal science program is the perfect catalyst for Canada's economy at this time. The government should also ensure that public science professionals are able to do their research in an independent and non-partisan fashion, with the sole objective of protecting and advancing the public interest.

Secondly, I want to turn to the use of contracts in the federal government. The institute maintains that the federal government needs to put an end to excessive outsourcing and reclaim the work within the federal public service. A realistic appraisal of overall cost demonstrates that in the majority of cases anticipated savings are rapidly erased and taxpayers end up paying much more in the long run. In this respect, the federal government has never produced a profitability analysis supporting its contention that contracting out is less costly than providing services internally. Contracts are renewed without requests for proposals and without adequate needs assessments. Moreover, the initial costs are frequently exceeded by an additional 50%. The government has a duty to be more transparent in managing its contracts.

Contracting out also poses the pernicious problem of the loss of internal expertise. Dangers arise when the government becomes dependent on private sector suppliers and no longer possesses its own internal know-how to verify contractors' work. Contracting out government services means Canadians are losing a valuable repository of knowledge in critical areas. The governments of the United States, Great Britain, and Australia have substantially increased their support for publicly funded science in this respect. In doing so, these governments have recognized that publicly funded research is a key driver of prosperity and economic competitiveness. The Government of Canada cannot afford to do any less. The institute urges the federal government to put any plans for contracting out government services and science on hold.

Third, I want to address the strategic expenditure review. In 2005, the government launched a five-year process of budget cuts for all departments and agencies. The review asked all departments and agencies to cut their overall spending by 5%. The institute denounces the secrecy surrounding the review. It is necessary to examine thoroughly the real impact of this initiative on federal public services and on all Canadians. Our assessment of the review reveals a number of negative consequences for the operations and work environments of the federal public service. For example, in the field of consumer product safety, a lack of sufficient financial resources prevented the government from hiring more inspectors, forcing employees to rely on recalls and do-it-yourself testing kits.

The review has also had serious consequences for the workplace climate. The public service employment survey reveals that almost 60% think the quality of their work has been adversely affected by the growing lack of resources. Employees feel the pressure to do more work with less. Recent budget cuts associated with the review are seriously harming the government's effort to attract and retain the young, highly qualified workers needed to replace an increasing number of retirees. The review has resulted in significant negative impacts on the quality of federal public services, rather than producing significant savings.

Finally, I want to say a few words about the Expenditure Restraint Act and the so-called Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act.

The institute contends that the Expenditure Restraint Act and the Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act constitute an unwarranted and unnecessary attack on the rights of unions representing federal public service employees. According to a Supreme Court of Canada decision, the process of collective bargaining is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Consequently, legislation that has the effect of substantially interfering with the process of collective bargaining is unconstitutional. In addition, the Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act turns the clock back by 20 years in its impact on women’s rights. This proposed legislation will lead to the death of pay equity.

In short, our recommendations are that the federal government should increase independent public funding for federal intramural scientific and regulatory research as a catalyst for innovation; the federal government should rein in its ideologically driven belief that the private sector can provide a better service than its own public service, and undertake a sober value-for-money analysis of the pervasive use of contractors; the strategic expenditure review process should be halted and a full and transparent evaluation of the review should be undertaken to determine its full impact; and lastly, the federal government should repeal the Expenditure Restraint Act and the so-called equitable compensation act.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Mr. Wallace, do you have a point of order?

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Yes. I just have a concept for the team here. The meeting was supposed to end at 6:30 p.m. If we went to 7 p.m., and we gave each party 10 minutes, and we went through each party, that would get us to seven o'clock. I think that would give a good opportunity for each organization to ask their questions.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

That would be helpful, because my understanding is that we're losing our interpreters at seven o'clock, too.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Oh, there you go. That solves the problem.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

That's a helpful suggestion. D'accord?

Thank you, Mr. Wallace.

We'll start with Mr. McCallum, please.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you. John McKay and I will be sharing our 10 minutes.

Thank you all for being with us here today. I'm sorry for the disruptions with the vote, but it was an act of God, one could say.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Now you're getting theological.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Well, maybe I'll take that back.

The first question is to the B.C. treaty commissioner. It's not really a question, but if you wish to comment, you're welcome to.

I'm not sure that your proposals cost any money, so I'm not sure they'd be in the budget, but I just wanted to say that having listened to you and read through your brief, I thought those were really excellent ideas that we should work for. It's a huge issue, and it seemed to make total sense to me.

6:20 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, British Columbia Treaty Commission

Sophie Pierre

Thank you very much. If I could, I would like to comment on that.

We recognize that you're used to presentations being made on expenditures. What we came here to talk about is having the funding that has already been allocated be used in a more efficient and effective manner. We know it can be done, and we can raise money here rather than just spending it.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

That's quite refreshing.

Now to Ms. Delorme, you use quite strong language. In your second recommendation you say the federal government should “rein in its ideologically driven belief that the private sector can provide a better service”, etc.

Are you suggesting that this ideologically driven belief belongs to the current federal government, or has it been around in some governments in the past? Is this something relatively new to Ottawa?

6:20 p.m.

Section Head, Compensation and Policy Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Denise Doherty-Delorme

It's certainly not relatively new, but it has certainly escalated in the last three or four years. We've seen staff leave and not be replaced, and billions of dollars--and I'm not using the “B” lightly--being outsourced to companies such as IBM and Telus and ICG for computer systems servicing--without review of the cost, without review of value for money, for example.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I think you had three categories of scientists--federal government, private sector, and university. Are you saying that in the last three or four years there has been a substantially increased bias against the federal government scientist?

6:20 p.m.

Section Head, Compensation and Policy Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Denise Doherty-Delorme

In budget 2007 it was outright. The federal government wanted to privatize several laboratories, and it's looking again at closing down federally run public laboratories and moving them to the private sector.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Now, perhaps this is in the public domain, but it was somewhat new to me. You say things that strike me as potentially quite serious; for example, that in the Canadian Food Inspection Agency the lack of resources caused by budget cuts has increased the risk to public health after the adoption of the new poultry rejection project, which transfers the responsibility for inspection of sick chickens from CFIA veterinarians to the industry, and you say something similar about consumer product safety.

Is this a well-known, well-documented set of facts?

6:20 p.m.

Section Head, Compensation and Policy Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Denise Doherty-Delorme

They were presented in their proposal under the strategic expenditure review: cut back on staff at CFIA, cut back on its mandate, and move it to the private sector.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Is this something that has happened, or is it in the works?

6:20 p.m.

Section Head, Compensation and Policy Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Denise Doherty-Delorme

It's in the process of happening.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Klugman--and this also applies to the Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences--we are enormously in favour of more funding for science, research, and innovation. In particular, we have heard good things about the IRAP program and the SR and ED program from many quarters. The only caveat is that SR and ED is a bit bureaucratic. There are a lot of hassles.

I have heard less about section 116. If I understand this correctly, you're saying that you want changes in that section that would make it easier for foreigners to take over Canadian companies. That strikes me as a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, we want access to foreign capital; on the other hand, we also hear lots of complaints that Canadian companies get to a certain size and are then gobbled up and are less likely to grow to become big companies.

What do you say to that?

6:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and President, Communitech

Iain Klugman

The issue is purely about access to foreign capital. This is the impact section 116 currently has on foreign venture capital funds. If a company has raised early-stage investment, or A round, perhaps within Canada, and it wants to do the next round of financing, the section 116 requirement gets in the way of the U.S. venture capitalists being able to come in with Canadian VCs to invest in the companies. The companies can't continue to grow because they don't have access to venture capital the way their U.S. counterparts do.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I have to stop you, because I'm over my five minutes and I'm being unfair to my colleague.

Thank you.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

It wouldn't be the first time.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll go to Mr. McKay, please.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Howlett, first of all, I want to publicly thank Make Poverty History for the enormous support they gave to Bill C-293. It was tremendously helpful.

We had our first reporting period as of the end of September. I assume that you've read that report. Any NGO I've ever talked to thinks it's a hugely disappointing response. It's almost contemptuous of Parliament, one might say.

I'm curious as to why you would have any confidence that this government would actually meet its millennium goal targets for 2015, or why the 0.7% aspiration is anything other than an aspiration. Given that they'll be under enormous fiscal constraints, do you think that even the aid budget as it presently exists will maintain its funding levels?

6:25 p.m.

National Coordinator, Make Poverty History

Dennis Howlett

It's essential that we play our part. The global economic crisis, although it has affected Canada, has affected many developing countries far worse. Increasingly, our economy in Canada is tied to global realities, so it's critical that there be a global recovery that is sustainable. That can only happen if there are investments in development in the south. Only then can we have a sustained global economy.

I agree that the current aid budget and the priorities of the aid program are a problem. But we're hopeful, given the requirements of the new legislation, the Official Development Assistance Accountability Act, and some of the legal levers it provides, that we will be able to work towards continuing improvements in the quality of Canadian aid.

The other thing is that a large portion of Canadian aid goes through multilateral channels. For some of them, such as our contribution to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria, there is strong evidence that they are doing a lot of good. There are ways to channel additional resources quite effectively, even though there are problems with CIDA.