Evidence of meeting #17 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was surplus.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Hodgson  Senior Policy Analyst, Labour Markets, Employment and Learning, Social Policy, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Louis Beauséjour  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Rob Cunningham  Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society, Coalition québécoise pour le contrôle du tabac
David Hughes  President and Chief Executive Officer, Pathways to Education Canada
Dale Patterson  Interim Chief Executive Officer and Vice-President, External Relations, Genome Canada
Bob Kirke  Executive Director, Canadian Apparel Federation
Michel Ducharme  Vice-President, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Michael Firth  Partner, Indirect Tax, PricewaterhouseCoopers
Guy D'Aloisio  Vice-President, Finance, Genome Canada
Marc Bellemare  Syndicate Counsellor, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

May 6th, 2010 / 4:50 p.m.

Michael Firth Partner, Indirect Tax, PricewaterhouseCoopers

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to make some comments this afternoon.

My comments are restricted to those parts of part 2 of Bill C-9 that deal with amendments to the Excise Tax Act in relation to the application of GST/HST to financial services and financial institutions. My comments are mainly directed to section 55 of part 2, which excludes a number of specific services from the definition of an exempt financial service, in some cases from January 1, 1991, and in other cases from December 14, 2009. I will identify some real concerns with the unworkability and the widely acknowledged overreach specific to these amendments. I will also highlight escalating, grave, and very widely held concerns among corporate GST registrants and their professional advisors that, whilst they are common to the current amendments, extend to many other amendments to the Excise Tax Act over recent years and to the GST overall.

These concerns relate to the current poor state of legislative maintenance of Canada's GST. Two prominent indicators of that decay are the increasing recourse to very tardy and harsh retroactive amendments many years after the tax and appeal courts have clearly illuminated the effect of the legislation; and the now routine expectation that taxpayers are to file returns and remit very significant amounts of tax, incremental to the effect of the current legislation, based on effective dates of press releases containing no legislation. Subsequently, taxpayers are then expected to file for a further number of years on the basis of a sequence of draft legislative versions, evolving as a function of consultations all conducted after the effective date.

I will refer to the GST throughout, but of course I do mean the GST and the HST as they apply in participating provinces.

Turning now to the specific amendments, section 55 of part 2 changes the GST status of a number of services from being a defined financial service, and therefore from being exempt from GST to being taxable. I will comment first on subclause 55(3) of the bill, dealing with proposed paragraphs 123(1)(r.4) and (r.5) to the act. In the interests of dealing with the time constraints, I have provided committee members with a copy of an article entitled "Semantics Antics", published in the March 2010 CCH Canadian GST Monitor. It provides much more detail on this specific amendment.

In the general scheme of a VAT like our GST, when a financial service or instrument is exempt from GST, then to avoid creating a distortion between those suppliers who sell directly using their employees and those who use independent intermediaries, it is necessary and desirable to also exempt financial intermediation services. These intermediation services include the roles of insurance brokers, mutual fund brokers, agents selling commercial and retail finance, mortgages, and so on.

The wording of this amendment would appear to render taxable a very wide range of financial intermediation services. In fact, it may, at a stroke, completely obliterate exemption of all financial intermediation in Canada.

A brief history of this amendment will be helpful to understanding its stressful impact on Canadian taxpayers. On December 14, 2009, the Department of Finance included five lines in a press release describing an exclusion from exempt intermediation of a service "facilitatory" or preparatory to the provision of a financial service. No specific examples were given.

Two months later, on February 11, 2010, the Canada Revenue Agency, which I will henceforth refer to as the CRA, published GST/HST notice number 250, which provided more information on the effect of the 2009 press release amendment. This notice contained a number of very specific examples of services that were, in the CRA's view, newly taxable effective December 14, 2009. Included within this key change were all commissions paid to mutual fund dealers; commissions paid to anyone, such as an automobile dealer, arranging for the provision of finance; and a range of other intermediation services, all of which had been clearly understood and identified previously as exempt. These were complete U-turns in the government's policy.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

One minute, Mr. Firth.

4:55 p.m.

Partner, Indirect Tax, PricewaterhouseCoopers

Michael Firth

As a result of dialogue, Finance Minister Flaherty announced on March 25 that the policy was not in fact not to impose new taxes on the financial sector, and the release was just badly worded.

So let's take a look at where you are now if you supply one of the services in this danger zone. The legislation proposed in this bill taxes your service. Notice 250 from the CRA taxes your service. That notice has two caveats on it: one, when it was released in February, which says, “Be warned, the legislation may not be enacted as described”; and a second one after Minister Flaherty's statement, saying that there is now a review conducted by the CRA. What are you supposed to do?

Persons making these supplies and their advisers simply do not know what to do. Clearly this is unacceptable and brings the tax into disrepute. The only honest and forthright way to deal with this is to remove this amendment from the bill. Then, following the process of consultation now under way, a new amendment should be developed to apply from a prospective date.

Time does not allow me to comment on the aspect of investment management services, but I did supply another article to the committee entitled “A New Lower Low”, which does give you more detail on that.

In conclusion, it is fair to say that the consensus among tax advisers and their clients is that the system of tax statute maintenance is broken. The amendments before you are a very good example of that.

Professional advisers are very concerned, corporate taxpayers within Canada are very concerned, and corporate taxpayers outside of Canada are becoming increasingly informed and dismayed. And that, ladies and gentlemen of this committee, should concern us all.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll go to questions from members.

Point of order, Mr. Wallace.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I know the standing order for this committee has seven-minute and five-minute rounds. Since we only have half an hour, could we look at three-minute rounds so we can get as many rounds in as possible in the next half hour?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Can we move to shorter rounds to allow more questioners? The opening rounds are all seven minutes, and if we do seven-minute rounds we'll only have four questioners. Is that okay with the members?

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Chairman?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Monsieur Carrier.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Can we sit after 5:30 p.m. instead?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I can't be here past 5:30, and our other vice-chair has left.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Can we have five two minute periods? I could chair, Mr. Chairman.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Well, four-minute rounds? I'm looking for a consensus.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Go for four minutes.

5 p.m.

An hon. member

We're wasting time.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Four minutes?

5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

All right, we'll start.

Mr. McKay, please.

5 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Well, since I've gone from seven minutes to four minutes, I'm going to restrict myself to two questions.

First to Genome. First of all, I want to thank Mr. Patterson for stepping into the breach. It's an important position you've taken on, and Genome Canada is an important organization. And I appreciate, on behalf of the people of Canada, your willingness to step in as interim CEO.

My first question to you, Mr. Patterson, is with respect to long-term planning. We heard yesterday that Genome's money comes actually from last year's budget rather than this year's budget. So I was wondering how those kinds of financial manipulations actually affect your budgetary planning, particularly your budgetary planning with respect to longer-term planning so that you have some certainty. Because I know these projects take quite a while to reach fruition.

5 p.m.

Interim Chief Executive Officer and Vice-President, External Relations, Genome Canada

Dale Patterson

Thank you for your comments and your question.

I'm going to ask Guy if he can address that, as our VP of finance. But there is no question that we will be back to see this committee and address this committee on a yearly basis. We come for yearly funding, and we will be putting forward a multi-year ask this year.

Guy, maybe you can get a little more specific.

5 p.m.

Guy D'Aloisio Vice-President, Finance, Genome Canada

Yes. We actually receive our funds based on cash needs over however many years we feel they're required. For example, for the $75 million, we have provided Industry Canada with what we think are the annual cash outflows that we will need in order to consume and go through to finance the projects we're going to approve.

At the beginning of each year they provide us with the actual cash for the funds that we need for that year. So how it's accounted for internally in the government I can't comment on, but that's the way we receive our funds.

5 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

But the issue is also stability of financing going forward. I'm sorry about having to leave it there.

Mr. Cunningham, your friends at Imperial Tobacco disagree with you. To no one's great surprise, they regard the stamping regime as ineffective and feel it will not achieve the stated measure of fighting the illegal tobacco crisis.

How is this stamping proposal going to actually cut back kids' smoking?

5 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society, Coalition québécoise pour le contrôle du tabac

Rob Cunningham

We need a series of remedies, and this is one of the remedies. It's interesting that Imperial Tobacco, which has been convicted of contraband itself, has been paying the largest fines in Canadian history, and then a civil payment that's much larger than that. They've been calling on the government to take action on contraband, but when the government takes action, they're unhappy. There's a cost. It's not that big on a per-pack basis. They're going to have to pay that.

One problem is counterfeiting, and this unique, highly sophisticated stamp will be hard to counterfeit, with a unique identifier. So you'll be able to tell if it's legitimate or not from the stamp in a way that you can't now. These yellow tear tapes, which are the stamp, are a lot easier to counterfeit. Moreover, certain licensed producers may produce more than they report to government, so you will be able to capture that, because each stamp will have a unique identifier and they won't be able to get away with it in the future.

But there are a series of other remedies that we need, and the bigger problem that we have at the moment is illicit production. So there are other remedies that are needed.

5 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you.

Okay, I'm done.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

Monsieur Paillé, s'il vous plaît.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I’m going to take 30 seconds to speak to Bob Kirke. I’m surprised to see that a representative of an employer, who pays 1.4 times the employee premium rate, can be in favour of Bill C-9 on employment insurance. If we have some time left, we can discuss that further.

I’d like to thank the people from the FTQ for presenting their file. That file reminds me of the victims of Earl Jones. In that case, they were a group of vulnerable individuals who were cheated in a swindle, and here we have vulnerable people who contribute to employment insurance and who are also being cheated. If we can’t say the government is a swindler, what is the term you would use to illustrate the fact that some $50 billion has disappeared and that everything has been accumulated since premiums have been paid by employees and paid at one point four times that rate by employers?