Evidence of meeting #120 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Perlman  Acting Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Richard Case  Acting Deputy Assistant Commissioner and Agency Comptroller, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Brian McCauley  Assistant Commissioner, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Gail Beck  Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Medical Association
Karen Cohen  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Psychological Association
Carmela Hutchison  President, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada
Akiva Medjuck  President, National Benefit Authority

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order.

This is meeting number 120 of the Standing Committee on Finance. Our orders of the day for the first hour are pursuant to Standing Order 81(4). We are dealing with the main estimates 2013-14, votes 1 and 5 under the Canada Revenue Agency, referred to the committee on Monday, February 25, 2013.

Colleagues, we're very pleased to have two officials from the Canada Revenue Agency here with us for the first hour this morning. We have Mr. Mark Perlman, acting chief financial officer and assistant commissioner, finance and administration branch. We also have Mr. Richard Case, acting deputy assistant commissioner and agency comptroller, finance and administration branch.

Welcome to both of you gentlemen.

Mr. Perlman, I believe you have the opening statement, and then we'll have questions from members.

8:45 a.m.

Mark Perlman Acting Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee to present, and to answer any questions you may have on the Canada Revenue Agency's 2013-14 main estimates.

Mr. Chair, as you know, the Canada Revenue Agency is responsible for the administration of federal and certain provincial and territorial tax programs, as well as the delivery of a number of benefit payment programs.

Every year, the agency collects hundreds of billions of dollars in tax revenue for the Government of Canada, and distributes timely and accurate benefit payments to millions of Canadians.

In order to fulfill its mandate, the CRA is seeking the approval of a total of $4.3 billion in resources through these 2013-14 main estimates. This represents a net decrease of about $98.1 million, or 2.2%, when compared with the 2013 main estimates authorities. This net increase is made up of a number of changes, but in total, $132.8 million in decreases are offset by $34.7 million in individual increases. The $132.8 million in decreases to the agency's budget are comprised of the following items. A reduction of $56.3 million is as a result of savings identified as part of the budget 2012 spending review. Most of the savings measures can be categorized under two broad categories, mainly making it easier for Canadians and businesses to deal with government and modernizing and reducing the CRA's back office.

Secondly, the agency's 2013-14 budgets also reflect a planned reduction of $31.3 million related to the completion of start-up activities for the implementation of the harmonized sales tax for Ontario and British Columbia as well as the new affordable living tax credit for Nova Scotia.

Furthermore, effective April 1, 2013, the agency is no longer responsible for administering the harmonized sales tax on behalf of British Columbia. As a result, a total of $19.1 million is being returned to the Treasury Board through these estimates.

These main estimates also reflect a decrease of $1.5 million from last year's estimates for the government advertising programs. This brings CRA's total advertising budget for the 2013 tax filing season to $6 million.

The remaining $24.6 million decrease consists of miscellaneous items, such as $13 million less in revenues for cost-recovered services provided by Canada Revenue Agency to various organizations pursuant to section 60 of the Canada Revenue Act; the sum of $5.8 million in planned funding reductions for various initiatives announced in the 2009, 2010, and 2011 federal budgets; an amount of $3.6 million in lower employee benefit plan rates; and finally, $2.2 million in planned reductions for the administration of the corporate tax in Ontario.

Offsetting these decreases, the agency's budgets will be increased by $34.7 million for a number of initiatives that I will briefly address as follows. There is an additional $14 million in 2013-14 as part of the multi-year upgrade of CRA's personal income tax processing system. This system is integral to the delivery of CRA programs and services to Canadians, providing Canada, the provinces, and the territories with their principal source of revenue. This system also enables the termination of eligibility for individual Canadians who receive benefit payments and tax credits each year. These upgrades will leave the CRA in a better position to address increased numbers of tax filers, respond to new tax policy measures, and implement new partnership agreements with provinces, territories, and other government departments and agencies.

In addition, the agency is requesting a $10.9-million adjustment in the transfer from Public Works and Government Services Canada related to accommodation and real property services.

The statutory payments for the children's special allowance are also expected to grow by $5 million, from $233 million in 2012-13 to $238 million in 2013-14. This is due to increases in both the numbers of children for whom payments are expected to be made and the monthly payment per eligible child.

The 2013-14 main estimates also reflect a $3 million increase in statutory disbursements to the provinces under the Softwood Lumber Products Export Charge Act, 2006. These projected increases reflect a revised forecast provided by the Department of Finance based on historic averages as well as forecasts of U.S. prices and volumes.

The final increases relate to an adjustment of $2.5 million in the amount previously transferred to Shared Services Canada when it was created, as well as $0.1 million in other miscellaneous items.

Overall, these main estimates display a net increase of $98.1 million when compared with the 2012-13 main estimates granted by Parliament. The CRA's revised authorities for 2013-14 will therefore total $4.276 billion. Of this amount, $3.1 billion requires approval by Parliament, whereas the remaining $1.2 billion represents a statutory forecast already approved under separate legislation.

The statutory items include softwood lumber disbursements to the provinces, the children's special allowance payments, the employee benefit plan costs, and the section 60 spending of revenues received through the conduct of CRA operations.

Mr. Chair, at this time my colleague and I would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have on the CRA's 2013-14 main estimates.

Thank you.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We will begin members' questions, five-minute rounds, with Ms. Nash, please.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning to the officials. Thank you for being here.

My questioning is around the reductions in expenditures you have outlined and what that means for tax enforcement at CRA. I know that staffing has declined from a peak of 460 full-time positions in the international audit program in 2009 to about 422 positions. I'm wondering how this department will be further impacted. Will there be increased ability to do international tax auditing? In this committee we've been studying cracking down on tax havens, so I'm wondering about the international tax compliance element.

8:50 a.m.

Acting Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Mark Perlman

I want to start by giving a bit of background about the spending review. When the government announced the $5.2 billion reduction, the CRA, as one of Canada's largest federal government organizations, had to do its part in contributing to the reduction of the federal deficit. Our part is the contribution of about 6.9% overall.

To answer your question directly, the CRA has been focusing its attention on administrative savings or activities that are of lower priority while maintaining its attention on higher-priority items such as international tax evasion and aggressive tax planning.

I want to assure the committee that the CRA is not weakening its efforts in audit enforcement. In fact, that is a priority area. Whenever we do our budgets going forward, these are the areas we tend to invest in.

In answer to your question, I believe the numbers you're quoting came out of question 1174, which should answer a number of the questions about aggressive tax planning and international tax evasion. If the committee would like, that question can be made available for distribution.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Yes, Mr. Chair, I would appreciate that. It would be great to see that.

If I have a little more time—

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have over two minutes.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Oh, great.

I'd like to follow up on that. It's our understanding—and maybe you can correct this impression—that the CRA plans to eliminate another 3,000 positions. Can you verify whether this is correct?

8:55 a.m.

Acting Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Mark Perlman

That is the answer that's in question 1174. I can start with, if we want to go there—

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Let me ask a supplementary question to the 3,000 positions being eliminated. Does increased spending or increased people resources in tax collection not pay big dividends in terms of taxes collected? In other words, when the CRA goes after those who either evade or just don't pay their taxes, surely that boosts revenue to the government's coffers. Would that be a correct assumption?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

One minute.

8:55 a.m.

Acting Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Mark Perlman

Let me start with the 3,008. The 3,008 was actually a number that came out when we first did our review of the agency. In creating our implementation plans, we were able to actually refine those numbers and get more details. As you may understand, we started off at a very high level. That number has now dropped down to 2,568, as we're moving forward. That is detailed in question 1174.

The CRA focuses its attentions on not only the number of people but also on the efficiencies and the effectiveness of our programs, and we continue to do whatever we can to boost revenues or to ensure that the amount of revenue that's being collected within the agency is treated appropriately.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

It's my understanding that there are only about seven tax case convictions a year involving offshore assets. Don't you think we could boost that, given the whistle-blower leaks that have been very public over the last few years?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

On a point of order, Ms. McLeod.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

We're here to talk about the main estimates; we're not here to talk about convictions. Certainly the folks who we have present are chief financial officers, so I think we have the wrong witnesses for that line of inquiry, and it's not related to the subject of the meeting today.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Do you want to respond on the point of order, Ms. Nash?

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

I would just argue we're here to talk about the main estimates and the impact of staffing reductions on the ability of CRA to do its work. I think it's in fact very pertinent to the business at hand.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

On this point of order, Mr. Brison, please.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I would agree with Ms. Nash. I think what she's trying to identify is what the potential linkage of changes in the estimates could be on rate of conviction, and we wouldn't want the committee to be accused of lacking conviction in our discussion this morning.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Ms. McLeod, again on this point of order.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Yes, again, I certainly appreciate that the work we do on tax evasion and tax havens is very important, but Ms. Nash was going directly to specific issues around convictions. My point is that we're here to talk about vote 1, vote 5, the estimates, and therefore I would look forward to the ruling of the chair.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

We are dealing with main estimates, we're certainly dealing with the report on plans and priorities, and we're dealing with the annual report to Parliament. It's all in the gamut of main estimates. The main estimates are, of course, very broad. As members know, the Speaker has interpreted “relevance” very widely, so I don't think it would be appropriate for the chair to limit questions. The officials can say that there may be other officials who should be coming forward to address those specific questions, but I'm going to allow the questions.

Mr. Perlman, on that.

9 a.m.

Acting Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Mark Perlman

What I will say to that is it is not my area of expertise, but I will take that question back.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You can always get back to the committee with that information with someone else.