Evidence of meeting #124 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Spokesperson, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
When you get cuts you get a decline in what is called production values. It happens particularly, Ms. Nash, in smaller centres, not so much in your constituency, but in rural Alberta, for example, or northern British Columbia or rural Newfoundland.
Conservative
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In the last year, CBC has opened a new radio outlet in Kamloops. So certainly as they continue to receive close to $1 billion a year, we see the service being expanded and focused.
Mr. Charette and Mr. Georgetti, I want to provide you with two examples. Last week in the supplementary estimates (A), we saw VIA Rail request an additional $99 million from the federal government to address the solvency of pension plans. Certainly that was coming to the Canadian taxpayers to deal with a solvency of pension plan issue.
I look at the recent report by the Conference Board of Canada that is looking at $1 billion a year deficit with Canada Post by 2020. Mostly we recognize the way Canadians do business is changing so it's having a significant impact on the business model. I also look at the current agreement with Canada Post. As I understand, even if they're making adjustments in efficiencies, they do not have any ability to lay off.... Most companies have the ability to adjust the workforce. It's very difficult, but they do have that ability. Canada Post doesn't.
I contrast that with when you're back home and perhaps you visit the small businesses in your riding that pay their 11% tax and work very hard. Yes, absolutely, you need to value the public service and the work they do, but again, I visit these small businesses that are putting in considerable time, energy, and effort, and do not have the benefit of the pension plan.
To my mind, the government is saying we have to look at the taxpayers' ability to pay as a very important feature of this budget. I'll start with Mr. Georgetti and then ask Mr. Charette, if you could keep it brief so there's an opportunity to....
President, Canadian Labour Congress
You're correct. At least 65% of Canadians don't have a pension plan, but taking a pension plan away from the other Canadians isn't going to help those Canadians without a pension plan. This is my first point.
My second point is that the Canada pension plan expansion that we are advocating would solve a lot of these solvency deficiencies that exist because of the market meltdown that started to happen in the United States, and that disease seems to have travelled around the world. Those plans were based on certain market assumptions that no longer exist. That's part of the problem.
We have to revisit our entire pension scheme. If you take a look at the CLC's proposal to expand the Canada pension plan, it would do a heck of a lot to give people who don't have a pension plan a secure pension, a retirement future. It would also take a lot of the burden off pension plans that exist today.
Taking pensions away from existing workers will not help those workers who don't have a pension plan one iota.
Conservative
Senior Policy Advisor, Fair Pensions for All
I would disagree with that last statement. After all, if a particular crown corporation needs to have an injection of $99 million, or if somebody else needs $1 billion too, where is that money going to come from? It's going to come from all taxpayers, including the huge group that doesn't have these pensions. That means less in terms of what they have available for saving for retirement. They're paying for these pensions.
Second, in terms of not taking away, you have to remember that the proposal that the CLC is making vis-à-vis the Canada pension plan is going to impact mostly small employers, the 75% of business units in the country that have less than five employees. The owners themselves don't have these public sector-type pensions, and they have no prospect, ever, of having such a pension plan.
Senior Policy Advisor, Fair Pensions for All
If you do those proposals that they're suggesting, you're going to cause the owner of those small little units of business to pay double the increase of everybody else, because they're thought to be both an employer and an employee. Then they'll pay half of whatever the increase is for their employees, and they don't have a pension themselves.
This is absolutely ethically wrong.
Conservative
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you very much.
Yesterday the Minister of Finance appeared before the committee, and I quoted excerpts from the letter we received from Hubert Lacroix, the president of CBC, where essentially he threatens to sue the government if the budget bill, Bill C-60, passes as is.
In that letter, he said that the budget bill “would reduce the independence that is critical to our operation”, and went on to say this:
This could potentially embroil the government, our Corporation, and its unions in litigation, a result that could be avoided with an amendment that protects that independence.
At the committee meeting, I simply asked the minister this:
Would you support an amendment to your budget bill that protects the independence of the CBC and avoids a court battle between the government and the CBC?
The minister responded:
The CBC may think it's a special...part of a crown agency.... This is wrong. All crown agencies have a responsibility through ministers back to Parliament and to the people of Canada.
Would you agree or disagree with the minister that the CBC is distinct from other crown corporations?
Spokesperson, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
Mr. Brison, it doesn't really matter what I think. That's the law of the land, as I quoted in my presentation, and there are good reasons for it.
It was, of course, under Mr. Mulroney's government that those reasons were advanced into law, but—
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
That was a Progressive Conservative government.
It's quite distinct.
Spokesperson, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
You're even more familiar with it than I am, sir.
Spokesperson, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
I just want to say that the government has ample control over the national public broadcaster—I use the word “control” advisedly, or “influence”—through control of the amount of public funds it receives, since something like 70% of its revenue comes from the Canadian taxpayer, and also through total control of appointments of its board of directors and its chief executive officer.
The arm’s-length principle, as I mentioned previously to Ms. Nash, is pretty important. You cannot find an example in another free and democratic country of any proposition like the one that Bill C-60 would have on the CBC. It's just not acceptable.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you very much, and thank you for helping to familiarize the government members with the law of the land on this issue. I think it's particularly important and helpful to edify all members of Parliament. I'll make sure the message gets back to the minister as well, as part of this ongoing pedagogy.
I also have a question with regard to, in general, the government's attitude not just to public broadcasting but to organized labour. Whether it is Bill C-377 or some of the changes proposed in the budget implementation act, do you see an ideological vendetta on behalf of this government against organized labour in pitting the majority of Canadians, or in trying to pit the majority of Canadians, against the interests of organized labour?
Mr. Georgetti.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
We're a bit curious as to why a successful process of collective bargaining and the legislation that allows workers to organize and bargain collectively is not seen as a positive aspect of the economy and society.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Has there been some sort of ongoing labour unrest that has precipitated this significant shift by the government?
I haven't been aware of some significant shift.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Furthermore, do you look at, for instance, models like Germany where you have active engaged companies, a government with organized labour being partners in progress, and a robust economy?
Should we not be looking at some of those models as inspiration, as opposed to trying to pick a fight with organized labour gratuitously?
President, Canadian Labour Congress
We hope that would be the case. We would think that our advice on industrial relations and collective bargaining, and unemployment insurance and pension reform, would be sought out by any government of the day.
Unfortunately, it seems that our opinions are not valued enough by this government.
