Finance Committee on Nov. 1st, 2011

[Clarence T. Jules]

Thank you very much for the question.

When we think about our role in the development of this country and its proud history and the future, I don't want to repeat what's happened in the past. When I look forward to the 21st century, I don't want to build our first nations on 19th century models. So that has to be one of the first things.

I do agree with Mr. Jock that we need to be part of the fiscal makeup of this country. A number of years ago, we undertook a study to look at first nations as an eleventh province. It took into account own source revenues, transfer payments both from federal and provincial resources extractions, etc.

So there has to be a new way of looking at how we fit into the economy. There have to be institutions built that facilitate our being part of the global economy.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I'm sorry to cut you off.

Ms. Simon, can you be very brief as well?

[Mary Simon]

Thank you very much for your question.

It's very hard to put a figure on a life. I did put out some figures on education, housing, and mental health. When you look at the suicide rate among the Inuit, you will see that it is seven times greater than the Canadian rate. So for every suicide in Canada, there are seven in Inuit communities. So if you think of those equations, it's very obvious that we need the infrastructure and the services for mental health. There's a reason for these suicides. We are in a crisis situation.

I have asked the Minister of Health to intervene on this crisis. If it were happening in the rest of Canada, there would be an intervention. But we haven't had an intervention. We also want a first ministers meeting on aboriginal education. Everybody says it's an important issue. Let's have a ministers meeting.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Member speaks in Chipewyan]

I'm specifically from northern Alberta, as I said, Fort McMurray. I grew up there, so you can imagine 23% of my riding is aboriginal, Cree and Dene. Most of my family is Dene, from four different bands, including the Janvier Indian Band and the Paul Cree Band, which of course was one of the signatories of Treaty 8. He's actually the great-grandfather of my best friend and my nephew.

I'm not from downtown Montreal or downtown Vancouver. I'm from where the reserves are, many of them in northern Alberta. I'm very proud of that. I'm also proud of a couple of other things, including the first budget we ever had as a Conservative government here. We had $400 million for on-reserve housing, and $400 million for off-reserve housing. We've cleaned up a lot of the water issues that were from the 1990s. We're very proud of that. I would say that overall, there's a lot more work to be done.

But I have to tell you Mr. Jules, I love what you're preaching. I'm not so sure about the Torrens land system. It's going to be interesting to see something from south Australia come over to Canada and go into the reserves, but I think it's fantastic.

My question the other day--which Mr. Mai alluded to--was in relation to what's going on in Fort McMurray. We have a shortage of workers. I will tell you this: the competitive advantage of aboriginals in this country is their ability to learn very quickly and to have jobs that pay a lot of money, especially in northern Alberta, including heavy duty mechanics, pipe fitters, and power engineers. I can go on and on. There are welders, too. They make good money. Syncrude has a 15% hiring policy. They have about 1,000 aboriginals working for them that are status Indians. With Suncor, it's the same.

Why are you not here today pushing for substantial training in these areas? This is the future of Canada and this would guarantee employment for aboriginal Canadians and take them out of poverty.

Ms. Simon, I do want to say this too, and I don't want to make a speech, although it might appear that I am, in regard to Bill C-10. I was very concerned about it, until I read some of its specifics. Bill C-10 specifically allows treatment. If people go to treatment for drug or alcohol problems, the minimum mandatory sentences can be avoided. That was one of my concerns specifically in relation to aboriginals who make up the majority of prison populations. So if I were you, I would take another look at it. I'd be happy to meet with you and go over the specifics.

But my question is, why can't we push the federal government for more money for training? Portage College has a great trailer system that goes from reserve to reserve, and I think it's just the future. I really do.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I have three people again.

I would ask you to please be very brief. I do want to get in a round here as the chair.

Mr. Jock, please.

[Richard Jock]

We're saying that education from kindergarten to grade 12 is the foundation for that. We think that's important, and then, as we said in our pre-budget submission, skills training and development certainly are key parts to this, as is post-secondary education. Without the base, though, you really are limited in terms of achieving success in the latter.

We are very much in favour of the kind of development you've talked about. That is our interest here.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Jules.

[Clarence T. Jules]

I did have it included as part of my presentation, but given the lack of time....

I created the Tulo Centre of Indigenous Economics, and part of our focus is to try to transfer the necessary private entrepreneurial knowledge to individuals, including all the skills needed in Fort McMurray and, indeed, in any place where you need resource extraction. The area around Kamloops is rich in mining, and we're trying to set up a centre for mining excellence with the first nations in that area.

So the education and training part is critically important, but not to create more people whom we can't actually use in building an economy. We need engineers as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Ms. Simon.

[Mary Simon]

Thank you for your comments. I'd be glad to meet with you on this.

I have to agree with Mr. Jock that training itself can't answer all of the educational needs of our people. They are not completing kindergarten to grade 12, and that's why I emphasized to a great degree the need to get our kids through high school. Then they'll be more able to go through the training you're talking about. The regulations and all of that stuff require a certain level of education.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

I'll just take the final round as the chair. I do sincerely appreciate your all staying for the extra time.

Mr. Whyte, I just wanted to follow up on one of your comments. It's true that your industry goes from ma and pa right up to large corporations. You see the whole gamut in your industry.

If you look at the two federal corporate tax rates, the 11% for the smaller business and then the 16.5% for larger ones, and then you add provincial tax rates on top of those, there are a lot of medium-size enterprises that are in fact paying the higher rate, because that higher rate kicks in at $500,000 of net business income.

Can you talk about that? I know you were responding to Mr. Marston on that, but I think you had more to say on the impact if we start raising those rates, or if we don't enact the reductions that are in fact planned for. Most of the businesses that have talked to me say, “James, we've already actually booked that into our business plan going forward, so if in fact you don't enact that, it will in fact be an increase, not a decrease.”

Do you just want to respond to that?

[Garth Whyte]

Well, you're right. I was listening to Governor Carney, and part of what he brings to the table is certainty. My point is that when we were down in Washington, a lot of people were looking to invest up in Canada because of the certainty here, knowing that they weren't going to be blindsided by different types of taxes. That was a big deal.

Likewise, between small-, medium-, and large-size enterprises, there are these notches where you say, “Well, I don't know if I want to go to the next level, because I'll get up to this other level of tax.”

So there are a bunch of things here--the issue of certainty, the issue of the overall.... They're within such tight margins that just increasing the rates will change the plans they've been making for a year or two, and they'll just say, “Okay, we'll stop it.” They're teetering. Some of our members are charging ahead, and for others there's uncertainty. You can almost pick it by province.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Just in my remaining time, I know I did cut off a couple of the witnesses, so I wanted to return to them.

Mr. Jock, and Mr. Jules especially, perhaps I can get you to flesh out your comments.

In particular, Mr. Jock, I'd like to get the AFN's reaction to Mr. Jules's proposal. My understanding is that the AFN is calling for a transformation of the relationship. Chief Atleo has been very progressive, I think, on the education file, but also in terms of saying that we need to get beyond the Indian Act and need to look at a new relationship.

Do you see Mr. Jules's proposal as being at least part of the solution towards transforming that relationship?

[Richard Jock]

Certainly, the intents and interests behind that are common. As I say, I think there need to be a few different paths forward for it, but certainly there is no argument about the basic interest. That's part of it.

The other part is the transformation of the relationship has very practical terms as well. If you look at the approach right now, it's really one of trying to track accountability and to get reports. It's been estimated that there are up to 2,000 public servants that are really just monitoring all of these contribution agreements. It seems to me that those 2,000 person years could be much better focused on things that will really pay off for the communities that need the services.

I think there are a lot of elements to transforming this relationship. The fiscal part of that is an important part of it.

Also, if long-term arrangements are possible, that would also make it possible for banks and other groups to be part of those investments. Land certainty is part of it. But also, the economic certainty of 15- to 20-year agreements or an understanding of what the level of these agreements will be will actually make it possible for the marketplace to participate in the first nations economy. There are lots of elements to that. I think it's an exciting part of the dialogue going forward that the national chief really wants to stimulate and to put into motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I'll give my remaining 30 seconds or so to Mr. Jules to respond.

[Clarence T. Jules]

The challenge facing your committee is how do first nations, individuals, governments and, for that matter, all aboriginal people fit within the federation and the global economy? We've all got huge resources at stake. Indeed, the future of the country depends on our active participation in federalism as well as the economy.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I appreciate that.

For Ms. Simon, I just wanted to highlight that I agree with your comment about high school education. I don't know if you're working with Eric Newell, the former chancellor of U of A and head of Syncrude, who is from Brian Jean's area. He's working very actively, at least in Alberta, and wants to expand high school education for aboriginals across the country. I'd encourage you to connect with him on that point as well.

I want to thank all of you being with us here today, especially for staying over time. We did have some technical difficulty at the beginning, which caused the first meeting to run late.

Thank you all for your input, presentations, and responses to our questions.

Thank you, colleagues.

The meeting is adjourned.