Finance Committee on Oct. 18th, 2012

[Robin Bobocel]

Generally it's passed on to the consumer.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It generally is or always is.

[Robin Bobocel]

It's always passed on to the consumer.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Hnatiuk, could you answer the question I posed to you earlier in more specific terms than infrastructure money, if you don't mind?

[Jeff Hnatiuk]

What we find, and I'll use the aboriginal community as an example, is that to increase the level of activity and programming, especially in northern remote communities, it's very important for us to develop leaders within those communities. We have had programs for which we have parachuted in program leaders for short periods of time. We find that the sustainability aspect of those programs just isn't there. The leadership has to come from within those communities themselves. Targeting community leaders and developing those community leaders and having them stay within those communities we find to be a much more successful model.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It would be something like getting the band involved directly and maybe having somebody on the band council specifically for that.

[Jeff Hnatiuk]

Definitely. It's partnerships within the community. We also find the RCMP being a critical partner in those communities.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I have many families and many aboriginal communities and reserves up in my area, and I find that the RCMP get involved in sports, especially hockey teams. They always coached the teams I was involved with. It was very helpful.

Mr. Bobocel, do you have anything further that you would like to talk about in relation to your specific suggestions on job creation and some of the things we talked about already?

[Robin Bobocel]

Certainly.

It's a challenge that we face in Alberta, but it's something that the whole country can benefit from if it's addressed properly. If the social structure is there to facilitate transfer of labour, I think we all benefit from that.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I know I only have five seconds, but I have to tell you that I hear very frequently that Fort McMurray exports more money to Cape Breton and Newfoundland than any other industry in the country or in those areas.

[Robin Bobocel]

It doesn't surprise me.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It doesn't surprise me either. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I think all the real work there is done in Nisku, Mr. Jean, anyway.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I've heard that as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We will go now to Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think Mr. Jean should be in sales actually; he's doing a fine job for Newfoundland.

Mr. Egan, your industry has been proven I think to be fairly responsible when it comes to the extraction and delivery of gas. Our friends across the way keep bringing up the carbon tax and all of that, but if there's responsible industry, if we had a cap and trade system where we move forward with the concept of a polluter “pay as you go”.... If we don't take care of our environment as we go forward, we're leaving it for the next generations. Would you not say that it is reasonable to give consideration to such an idea?

[Timothy Egan]

I find that whenever there's a debate about carbon, people quickly move to a position where they think that because natural gas is a hydrocarbon—it's the simplest hydrocarbon, but it's a hydrocarbon—therefore we have to think about getting rid of it.

I find that the more we can talk about driving efficiency and innovation, the more we can achieve a variety of environmental benefits, including emission reductions—and emission reductions are one of many environmental benefits.

We have a real hurdle to jump within the gas industry because of that carbon debate, so very often we try to jump right over it and make the point that we can deliver on a better environment, if you start considering how this fuel can be used.

I will give you an example. In the city of Toronto—I actually live in Ms. Nash's riding, Parkdale—High Park—the discussion that emerges around hydrocarbons is one that often forecloses any debate about the use of natural gas.

Combined heat and power projects can be built in the city of Toronto using natural gas, which could deliver extraordinary benefits in terms of a reduction of energy costs, a reduction of a variety of impacts, but it is very hard to get to that discussion when the premise is always about carbon.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's why I spoke to the responsibility of your industry and how you have been responsible. Some industries have been somewhat less so—they haven't moved forward as we believe they should—and one of the incentives to doing that would be a cap and trade system.

I don't want to belabour it, but I just want to make the point, because it keeps getting raised by our friends across the way. Last year in our pre-budget hearings we dropped by Whitehorse—and I'm glad to hear you talk about the north in your presentation because the infrastructure problems they face up there.... In fairness, the Canadian government puts a lot of money into those areas because of the almost impossible situation they're in, with their low population, in terms of being able to deal with it.

We've heard testimony, as you've alluded to, about the trucking industry and the transition to gas, and I think the map we saw yesterday was horrendous in terms of the imbalance between the United States and what they've already done with this. We've been pressing hard about a macro move on infrastructure in Canada. The $124 billion deficit is well known. But in parallel with that, if we're out there working on bridges and highways, then that may well be a time to establish some of these stops for the trucks to put this in motion. Would you see that as a reasonable proposition?

[Timothy Egan]

Any opportunity to put more gas into the transportation sector is one that we're prepared to consider and discuss with federal officials.

With respect to the north in particular, there are obviously unique challenges. One of the challenges of showing a map of the United States and a map of Canada is that the distribution of the population is entirely different. The density is different, and there are a host of issues like that.

We look at northern communities like Whitehorse and there's an opportunity to definitely move gas into that community to meet a variety of needs.

Moreover, it's also an opportunity to think long term about developing a northern resource base that exists in terms of the incredible natural gas that exists in the far north.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I want to comment about sports. This is great what you've shown us, particularly what you're doing as an intervention on behalf of the communities that don't have anything and are facing a high crime rate.

How effective do you see that being when you do the comparison with the mandatory minimum sentences young people face when they get into trouble? You are giving them opportunity.

[Jeff Hnatiuk]

Well, we are. We're hopefully giving them opportunity. I think that's long range. We haven't had the opportunity to really delve into what impacts we're having over the long term, but anecdotally, I think we're finding that we're making some significant strides in a fairly short period of time in diverting some of the activity of those who have sort of a history of getting into criminal activity.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Ms. McLeod, please.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Happy celebrations for the CFIB and the year of the co-op and the day of the co-op. It sounds like it's a banner week to be here.

I'm going to start with Mr. Rogers. We introduced some draft regulatory changes. Of course, when they're finalized, they're going to allow more pan-Canadian opportunities.

Can you tell me what you see for the future of credit unions with those changes, once they're enacted? Are a number chomping at the bit for these changes? Could you talk a little bit about that and the future?

[Gary Rogers]

Yes, I'd be happy to.

We look forward to the coming into force of the legislation. It's not in force yet, so that final step will need to happen before credit unions can step forward and express an interest or actually move ahead with that option.

It is one option. We do not foresee many credit unions taking advantage of it right away, but there are some that are looking at it very seriously.

What it does is free up a credit union to move beyond provincial boundaries. There are many reasons it may wish to do so, such as in the Atlantic provinces, where there are a number of small credit unions in close proximity but across provincial borders that may wish to work together. It may be a group of members with a common bond. A number of credit unions, in different provinces, that have a unique employee base or ethnic base may wish to work together more. As well, it allows some economies of scale to occur.

Over time we see some credit unions moving in that direction. We don't see a stampede at all, but we do appreciate the option. It puts one more business option on the table that can be part of a business decision. At the end of the day, it will be a business decision.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I also note, in your first response to the budget, that one of the pieces you picked out was the proposed first nations properties ownership act and what impact that might have in terms of your lending.

Can you clarify that in terms of your current relationship with aboriginal communities and what the potential relationships might be?