Finance Committee on Nov. 18th, 2013

Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was account.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill C-4, A second act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 21, 2013 and other measures

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ted Cook Senior Legislative Chief, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Sean Keenan Director, Sales Tax Division, Department of Finance

Geoff Trueman General Director (Analysis), Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Pierre Mercille Senior Legislative Chief, GST Legislation, Department of Finance

Annette Ryan Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Ray Cuthbert Director, CPP/EI Rulings Division, Legislative Policy Directorate, Canada Revenue Agency

François Masse Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance

Jeremy Rudin Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Soren Halverson Senior Chief, Corporate Finance and Asset Management, Department of Finance

Tim Gardiner Director, Energy Systems Management, Petroleum Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Mitch Bloom Vice-President, Policy, Planning, Communications and Northern Projects Management Office, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency

Dennis Duggan Senior Policy Analyst, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Drew Heavens Senior Director, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Don Graham Executive Director, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Dora Benbaruk Director and General Counsel, Treasury Board Secretariat Legal Services, Department of Justice

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

So what happened to the $57 billion?

4:45 p.m.

Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance

François Masse

Again, the account was simply closed.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

So those premiums were in general revenue, then.

4:45 p.m.

Chief, Labour, Market Employment Learning, Department of Finance

François Masse

That's correct.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Okay.

The CEIFB was created to set the EI rates independently. Is that correct?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy

That's right.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

In how many years did the CEIFB set rates completely independently of the federal government?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy

I'm not a hundred per cent on, but I think it was.... In the first couple of years, when the legislation was put in place for the CEIFB, the mechanisms for them to actually set the rate hadn't been fully established. It took a couple of years before they actually set the rate. I think in total, there were one or two years in which the board set the rate.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

For one or two years they set the rate. Are you saying that for two years they set the rate without intervention from the federal government?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy

Well, when you say intervention by the federal government, the rates are basically set by mechanisms in establishing the legislation, and when the board set the rate, it followed those mechanisms.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

How much was spent on or by the CEIFB, the financing board, in each year of its existence and in total? How much did they spend?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy

I don't have the total number for each year, but in the last year of operations, their budget came in at $1.2 million.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

At $1.2 million.

November 18th, 2013 / 4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Could you submit the answer for the other years to the committee later on?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy

Yes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

This body was created in 2009. At that time, all of this money that had been contributed by workers and employers was put into general revenue. There was nothing in the fund so it started out with zero, at a time when we were still dealing with high unemployment from the most severe recession, from the great depression.

This fund has never really operated in the way it was meant to, and we still don't have the money that was eliminated back in 2009—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, ask the question.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

—and now it's going to be changed again. Why?

What good has the board been?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Legislative Policy Analysis, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Michael Duffy

I'm not in a position to judge that question.

I can explain that the new mechanism coming in 2016 for purposes of establishing the 2017 rate is designed to be open, transparent, and will be set by the EI Commission, which is a tripartite body with representation of both business and labour. Going forward—

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

The government consistently ignored the advice of the board, so I'm wondering why the board was even set up.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll have to return to that in a later round.

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

Mr. Keddy, go ahead, please.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, witnesses.

Before I start I'd like to recognize the change to fisheries EI that's in the budget. That was a needed change and it was important that it be brought in. We've encouraged fishermen for years to be multi-species fishermen, to be stakeholders in their industry, to work outside their industry, and then to turn around and not be able to combine fishermen's EI and regular EI was an oversight by the government.

I think you actually mentioned this in your remarks, but I didn't quite hear you. How far back will that be retroactive?

4:50 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Ryan

The changes will go back to April 7, 2013, so essentially the previous treatment of income will be put back in place.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

So it will be for most of this fiscal year.