Evidence of meeting #79 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was isis.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Johnston  Political Scientist, RAND Corporation
Vivian Krause  As an Individual
Martin Rudner  Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus, Carleton University, As an Individual
Kevin Stephenson  Executive Secretary, Egmont Group of Financial Intelligence Units
Yaya Fanusie  Director of Analysis, Center on Sanctions and Illicit Finance, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order. This is meeting number 79 of the Standing Committee on Finance. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), are that we resume our study of terrorist financing in Canada and abroad.

We have with us three witnesses in Ottawa and then two by video conference. We have, first of all, from Carleton University, Mr. Martin Rudner. We also have, from the Egmont Group of Financial Intelligence Units, Mr. Kevin Stephenson, and from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, Mr. Yaya Fanusie. Welcome to all.

We also have, by video conference from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, from the RAND Corporation, Mr. Patrick Johnston.

Mr. Johnston, can you hear me okay?

8:45 a.m.

Patrick Johnston Political Scientist, RAND Corporation

I can, thanks.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay. Thank you for being with us.

By video conference, from North Vancouver, British Columbia we also have Ms. Vivian Krause.

Ms. Krause, can you hear me?

May 5th, 2015 / 8:45 a.m.

Vivian Krause As an Individual

Yes, thank you.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you. Welcome to the committee.

You will each have five minutes for your opening statement, and we'll begin with Mr. Rudner, please.

8:45 a.m.

Prof. Martin Rudner Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus, Carleton University, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Indeed, it's an honour and a privilege to be appearing before this committee on this highly important and relevant topic. I might begin by saying that we have a sad experience in Canada of Canadian involvement in terrorism finance dating back to the troubles and conflicts in Sri Lanka, where Canada had become the world's largest single financer of Tamil Tiger terrorism in Sri Lanka and globally, which included the murder of two prime ministers, of India and of Sri Lanka. So I think it's absolutely appropriate that Parliament and this standing committee on finance examine the issues of terrorism financing in the contemporary period precisely to prevent any possible resurrection in Canada of what happened in the past.

I'd like to begin my remarks by saying that I will be focusing on four areas of, I think, relevance to the work of this committee. One will be the mobilization and transfer of funds from Canada to terrorist organizations globally. The second topic will be the import of funds from abroad for terrorist activities in Canada. My third topic will be emergent issues in terrorism financing, which involves Canadians and Canadian interests. Finally, if I may, I'll make some recommendations derived from the analysis that could, I hope, be of assistance to the committee in its procedures.

On the mobilisation and transfer of funds from Canada to terrorist organizations, I've identified seven areas of interest. I'll mention them here, and we can go into the details of case studies, if you wish, in the questions that follow.

There is, for example, the raising of donations and the transfer of donations to terrorist organizations through front organizations. Canadians donate money to front organizations, which transfer those funds to terrorist organizations like al Qaeda, the Islamic State, or Hezbollah.

Secondly, there's the diversion of charitable funds that are given by Canadians to charitable organizations, but those organizations are sometimes infiltrated by sympathizers of terrorist organizations, and the funds are diverted.

Thirdly, there are profits from contraband trade, where products are smuggled across state or provincial boundaries, tobacco for example, from low tax jurisdictions to higher tax jurisdictions, with the profits going to terrorist organizations.

Then there are the sales of mementoes, books, and other things that people buy, and the funds go to terrorist organizations.

There are trade-based transactions of high value, easily cashable merchandise. One example of this is the Islamic State acquiring petroleum from northern Iraq or northen Syria, exporting it through clandestine channels, and keeping the profits. And, by the way, there are examples of this in North America from Canada.

Then we have drug trafficking, sadly, and then we have financial fraud, the abuse of credit cards, for example.

On the import of funds from abroad for terrorist activities in Canada, we have a number of examples of areas of involvement. We have, for example, prepaid travel credit or debit cards that have financed Canadians to go abroad as foreign fighters or as other terrorist operatives.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have one minute remaining for your opening remarks.

8:50 a.m.

Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus, Carleton University, As an Individual

Prof. Martin Rudner

Sorry, I'd better hurry.

Then we have the funding of extremist clergy in mosques and itinerant radical preachers. We have the funding of terrorist networking sleeper cells. We have the funding of activities targeting deliberate Canadian interests, mostly in oil and gas. We have emergent issues. We have cyber-theft, which targets banks. We have welfare payments to jihadists. We have the crowd sourcing of terrorist fund mobilization and we have international bank transfers of funds through the banking system, or money laundering.

On recommendations, my first would be to prioritize terrorism financing, detection, prevention, and prosecution. Second would be to enhance the investigative powers of FINTRAC, our Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, which is part of the Egmont Group, to enable it to conduct investigations and lead to proper prosecutions and prevention. Then the banking system has to be made more engaged in the prevention of terrorism financing.

Thank you very much.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your opening statement.

We'll go to Mr. Stephenson, please.

8:50 a.m.

Kevin Stephenson Executive Secretary, Egmont Group of Financial Intelligence Units

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

First off, I just want to highlight a special thanks to the Canadian government. There's a reason that our office and the secretariat of the Egmont Group of Financial Intelligence Units are in Toronto. It's because the Canadian government gave $5 million back in 2006 so we could open up a secretariat in Toronto in 2007. The commitment from the Canadian government has been continuous throughout. FINTRAC has chaired one of our training working groups and also has been a vice-chair on the Egmont committee.

I'll give you a brief history about the Egmont Group. It started in 1995 with about 20 heads of FIUs sitting around the table saying, how can we share information when it comes to anti-money laundering? That was in 1995, before 9/11 when we started passing out all the TF legislation. We've grown to 147 member jurisdictions now, and we continue to grow. We are having our plenary meeting this summer, in June. We anticipate having over 140 members by then.

The major objectives of the Egmont Group are to improve the effective exchange of information upon request and spontaneously among financial intelligence units, and also to promote the development of effective FIUs globally.

One of the things that we're very proud of is the Egmont Secure Web. It's a secure network whereby FIUs—all of our 147 members—can securely share financial intelligence with each other through the network.

In terms of the importance of information exchange and international cooperation in combatting terrorism financing, there are a few things we think are highly important from the Egmont Group's perspective. It's the importance of the jurisdictions to at least meet the international standards. I believe Canada will be going through its mutual evaluation towards the end of this year. I think the IMF will be leading that evaluation.

Also, we think that the timely exchange of information in terms of terrorism financing is critical and we're going to start having discussions within the Egmont Group on how we can get closer to real time. Is real-time exchange on terrorism financing information possible? What are the resource implications? What are the capacity concerns? And how do we make it happen?

We also think that jurisdictions need to have an effective regime, and this is something that the FATF has evolved through with the changes in the methodology from 2012. The days of just being technically compliant are over. Hopefully, for example, they have what's called “immediate outcome 6” within the FATF recommendations. It talks about how financial intelligence moves through the entire regime, starting from the reporting entities—and Mr. Rudner mentioned that in terms of the banking reporting—all the way to successful prosecutions. It is no longer okay to have just one particular entity doing a good job. It has to work well throughout the whole regime. That's something we need to work on. It's very critical when it comes to terrorism financing.

What is the Egmont Group doing now in terms of terrorism financing? Actually right now there is a meeting in Washington, D.C., of some FIUs that are on a project that's dealing with ISIL and foreign terrorist fighters returning and how they're being financed in this and that. Actually, FINTRAC is playing a very active role in that particular project. I can't go into the specifics at this stage, but we anticipate the work of this project team is going to look at some of the operational information. They're sharing operational information but they're also recording the barriers, either legal or operational, that might come up and that we need to improve or look into. We anticipate that report might feed into the FATF this summer, then also feed into the G-20 report later on.

Challenges facing FIUs in combatting terrorism financing. Domestically, agencies dealing with TF have a bad habit of working in silos. That's something that has to change. Internationally, we need to improve and install mechanisms that share information almost instantaneously. That's a big challenge for FIUs. That's a big challenge for a lot of places.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have one minute left.

8:55 a.m.

Executive Secretary, Egmont Group of Financial Intelligence Units

Kevin Stephenson

I'm almost finished.

Also, policy-makers need to properly resource the competent authorities mandated to combat terrorism financing to include FIUs. We have also recognized that there is the growing recognition that financial intelligence is a vital tool in being able to monitor and track terrorism financing. It's a big challenge because sometimes the amounts of money are very small, so it's a great challenge for the FIUs and everybody involved.

This summer, in the plenary session, we're going to have a panel conversation between a lot of competent authorities from the intel community, law enforcement, and FIUs. We will also bring in the private sector, on a separate panel, some reporting entities to give their perspective to include how they look at the TF issue.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Fanusie

8:55 a.m.

Yaya Fanusie Director of Analysis, Center on Sanctions and Illicit Finance, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Good morning. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, thank you for giving me this opportunity to appear before you to discuss terrorist financing.

In short, terrorist attacks do not require much capital. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula once touted how its failed plot to bomb a plane over North America in 2010 cost only $4,200. What's not captured in such estimates is the general cost of operating. This includes salaries, ground transportation, safe houses, and even paying bribes. These make up some of the fixed costs which terrorist organizations incur.

We've identified four general typologies that we see terrorist groups employing in order to meet these costs. They are controlling territories and borders, participating in crime and smuggling, tapping wealthy private donors, and also there's state sponsorship.

I'll give an overview of some of the examples and identify some vulnerabilities in these methods that we can use as opportunities for our governments to disrupt and weaken terrorists' ability to fund themselves.

First, terrorists leverage their control of borders and ports. One example is ISIS. It makes $1 million to $2 million per day by selling oil from the refineries it controls in Syria and Iraq. It levies taxes on goods in the territories that it controls and it actually forces local businesses to pay fees for electricity.

There's Boko Haram. Boko Haram controls parts of Nigeria and neighbouring countries. It earns money by taxing the fish trade. Al Shabaab taxes charcoal and other goods that have to travel on roads to and from Somalia's major ports. The UN estimates that al Shabaab at one point was earning $75 million to $100 million a year in charcoal sales alone, and charcoal was banned from being exported from Somalia.

There's an opportunity here. The local business people are affected by violent extremists and they may serve as potential allies in fighting terrorist influence.

Then there's crime and smuggling. For example, kidnapping for ransom is actually the leading method of terrorist financing after state sponsorship. One example, since 2008, al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb alone has received more than $90 million from various governments around the world to release hostages.

There are, of course, the jihadist conflicts in Syria and Iraq. They've opened the flood gates for the legal trade of antiquities. It's difficult to calculate the exact amount that ISIS has received from the antiquities trade, but one source estimated that the group accrued $36 million from stolen artifacts just in one part of Syria.

Boko Haram, as I mentioned, robs banks and steals military equipment. It threatens poor farmers just to sustain itself. It will threaten kidnapped family members, so that it can receive livestock and food.

There is the worldwide illegal wildlife trade. Going back to al Shabaab, it's used its proceeds from illegal ivory tusk trafficking to fund terrorist attacks in Kenya. You're familiar with the Westgate mall attack, a Canadian official was killed in that attack.

There is the Lord's resistance army. They poach elephants to fund their activities. There's a vulnerability here because crime and extortion also alienates the local population creating potential allies.

Regarding hostage-taking, one U.S. official noted at the U.S. treasury department noted that al Qaeda has apparently shifted its focus from targeting Americans for kidnapping because the U.S. government does not pay ransoms. This may bode well for the Canadian government which has a similar stance.

There are also the wealthy donors. This is particularly an issue in the gulf. A considerable amount of funding still alludes financial oversight at times. This is a challenging target because many of the regimes that co-operate with our governments in military and diplomatic areas nevertheless continue to allow terrorist financiers to operate largely unabated.

Qatar and Kuwait are some areas of concern. Various jihadist fighters in Syria are receiving funds through the fundraisers who leverage social media. There is still an opportunity here because the gulf states, obviously, rely on military support from North America and that's a lever that Canada can use to pressure regimes to arrest terrorist financiers.

Finally, there is the issue of state sponsorship of global terrorism. Iran is the most active sponsor of terrorism. Tehran sends hundreds of millions of dollars annually to terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah and Hamas, and despite sharp ideological differences between Iran's leadership and al Qaeda's, Tehran has provided safe haven to even high-ranking al Qaeda members over the last 10 years and al Qaeda has used Iran as a transit point to move recruits and money.

Last year the Canadian court decided to seize $7.1 million in Iranian assets in Canada. That was a milestone for the families of the victims of Iranian terrorism and can serve as a precedent to seize assets which are held back from companies.

In conclusion, as terrorists vary their means for securing funds it becomes more critical for authorities to fully address the multiple strategies they deploy.

The above typologies for terrorism finance demonstrate our enemies' adaptive nature, but each of these methods comes with vulnerabilities, which Canada can exploit.

Thank you for your time and the opportunity to testify today.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll now go to you, Mr. Johnston, for your five-minute opening statement.

9 a.m.

Political Scientist, RAND Corporation

Patrick Johnston

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee for inviting me to testify today.

As terrorist organizations have marshalled unprecedented funding for their activities recently, the need to address counterterrorist finance policy is clear. Accordingly, my remarks today will focus on the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, a group that I've been studying extensively since 2012.

Over the last year ISIS has risen to become the richest and most threatening terrorist organization in the world, and ISIS' recruitment of hundreds of Canadian and U.S. citizens makes it a special threat to North America.

I'm going to divide my testimony into three main parts. The first will look at how ISIS raises and spends its money; the second will examine the impact of current coalition efforts against iSIS' finances; and the third will offer steps that Canada, the U.S., and coalition partners could consider to enhance the effectiveness of these efforts.

Disrupting ISIS' financing presents a special challenge for western countries because its funding sources differ from most other terrorist groups of interest to Canada and the United States since 2001. Unlike groups like al Qaeda and Hezbollah, for example, ISIS finances its operations by raising the vast majority of its revenue internally from territory that it controls. It doesn't rely on deep-pocketed donors, Islamic charities, or state sponsors, which are vulnerable to traditional counterterrorism finance instruments such as targeted sanctions. This makes ISIS both unique and a very resilient financial adversary.

How exactly does ISIS make its money? It's established a diverse set of revenue streams that include extortion, oil sales, looting of rare antiquities and other stolen goods, and tax collection. It's also raised smaller amounts of money from kidnapping for ransom, foreign donations, and money smuggled into Syria and Iraq by foreign fighters.

The coalition's biggest success so far in disrupting ISIS' finances has been in terms of its oil revenues. Last summer the group was making between $1 million to $3 million U.S. per day, and this is just on top of all of its other revenue streams, as well as approximately $1.2 billion that it accumulated in existing assets.

After the coalition began a counterterrorist campaign against ISIS in September, air strikes on its oil infrastructure have helped to disrupt these revenues. The air strikes reduced ISIS' oil extraction capabilities to as little as 5% of what they were at last summer's peak rate. These production decreases coincided with the sharp decline in oil prices worldwide, so ISIS' oil revenues are now reported to have dropped from approximately $1 million to $3 million per day to about $2 million per week.

This represents a significant decrease in what was previously ISIS' main revenue source, but it hasn't been enough to meaningfully degrade ISIS' ability to operate and to fund these operations. The reason why is simple: ISIS isn't a petrostate. It retains lucrative internal revenue streams from which it continues to make an estimated $2 million to $3 million each day.

Compared to recognized nation states, ISIS' economy is small. It would be in the bottom 10% to 15% of all countries in terms of GDP, falling somewhere between Belize and the Gambia. But as a terrorist organization ISIS remains extremely rich.

The self-proclaimed Islamic State does have grand ambitions but its operating costs are relatively modest given these ambitions. It minimizes investments in service provision, infrastructure, and materiel, and most of ISIS' spending actually goes into one or two areas, which are wages and personnel costs, and running a Sharia-governed police state essentially on the cheap.

However, ISIS has managed to increase its manpower on the cheap by attracting recruits who are more interested in its extremist ideology than the size of their paycheque. The reports on ISIS' salaries vary, but even if the high-end estimates are correct—which are about $500 per month—ISIS' personnel costs would still be less than one-quarter of its estimated revenues, leaving ample resources for it to fund its various religious, media, and military operations.

I have a few recommendations. The first is to support new and ongoing efforts to disrupt terrorist organizations' internal revenue-generating capacity. ISIS' wealth is inextricably linked to the territory that it controls. Building a local and regional security force capacity is going to be necessary in order to reclaim the territory that ISIS uses to fund itself.

The second is to find and to seize existing ISIS financial reserves and cash stores. ISIS' war chest is large enough right now that failing to seize it may enable the group to weather the storm of what otherwise might be successful efforts to target its finances.

Third and finally is for counterterrorism operations against ISIS to prioritize not only the group's high-level leadership, but also its administrators and financial facilitators who account for and distribute the group's money. Targeting these nodes, whether kinetically or non-kinetically, can disrupt the group's financial operations and provide valuable intelligence for further unravelling its financial networks.

Thank you very much.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your opening statement.

We'll now hear from Ms. Krause, please.

9:05 a.m.

As an Individual

Vivian Krause

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify today.

My understanding from the clerk is that she wanted to hear from me because of the expertise I've developed around the issue of the funding of the environmental movement, the workings of the charitable sector, and how money has come into Canada from the United States especially, and also other countries.

I'd like to preface my remarks by saying from the outset that I've gone through more than 100,000 pages of American tax returns going back 20 years. I've traced the funding of more than 100 environmental groups, and I have never seen any evidence of eco-terrorism or eco-sabotage or anything within the environmental movement that from my lay perspective would constitute terrorism. I want to make a point of saying that, because given the public conversation we've been having in Canada, I think it is important to distinguish between activism and terrorism and between civil disobedience and terrorism.

I've seen no evidence of terrorist financing. That said, I'm not an expert on the matter, and I haven't been looking at it.

I would like to make one suggestion for the committee. It's actually something I mentioned four years ago, when I first testified to a standing committee on national finance. I would just point out that the disclosure requirements we have in Canada are not the same as they are in other countries. In fact, we require far less disclosure from our charitable sector. I mention that because our first speaker of course referred to the use of charitable organizations as a way to launder money. I made a suggestion four years ago, and many other people in Canada have made the suggestion, that we need more transparency in the charitable sector to help ensure the credibility of the sector and also to ensure that it's not used or misused as a way of laundering money into Canada.

You know, it's not rocket science. In the U.S., the IRS has already established pretty simple requirements. For instance, charities are required to list the names of their five highest-paid employees, the names of the five highest-paid contractors. They also, more by way of tradition than anything, include not only the recipients of grants and the amounts but the stated purpose for which the funds are granted. They also include information on where the charity has its investments and on who the donors are.

I'm sure there are people who have much more expertise on that than I do, but it just seems to me, even from my lay perspective, that given the size of the charitable sector in Canada it's important that there is more transparency, for several reasons. One, of course, is just that it's not used as a vehicle for laundering money.

I'd be glad to answer any questions you have. I'll just mention that one other thing I've noticed in my research is that there are several ways that money can come into the charitable sector but it doesn't show up in the tax returns. Organizations have found various ways to get around this by using intermediary organizations and front groups. It seems to me, even from my lay perspective, that a few measures could be taken to prevent that sort of activity.

Thank you for your time. I'd be glad to answer any questions.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Colleagues, I think we can do six-minute rounds.

We'll start with Mr. Cullen, please.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. My apologies for being late.

Mr. Stephenson, I'll start with you, but this might be for Mr. Fanusie as well. Whatever legislation the government passes in an effort to combat terrorism, whatever measure is taken, there was previous legislation passed through the proceeds of crime act and money laundering and whatnot. It's important that they be constitutional, and then passing any sort of judicial review would be important as well if the intention is to limit money laundering and terrorist financing.

Is that a fair comment for me to make, that they stand up in court?

Yes? Okay.

In the government's first iteration of this, they had several sections of their anti-money laundering and proceeds of crime act struck down in the court, warrantless searches of lawyers' offices being one of them. A second section around trying to break solicitor-client privilege, which is what that act has attempted to do, was deemed unconstitutional by the courts.

So all those efforts are for naught. We now have a bill in front of us, Bill C-51, which is making its last way through Parliament, that seeks to further disrupt terrorist financing but perhaps through means that won't pass constitutional muster.

Would it be critical, in terms of using any of these tools, to have a strong sense that they are legal under the Canadian Constitution before we pass them through Parliament in order for them to eventually one day be effective in doing what they're meant to do, which is prevent terrorists from receiving funds?

9:10 a.m.

Executive Secretary, Egmont Group of Financial Intelligence Units

Kevin Stephenson

I'm not an expert on Canadian legislation. From the Egmont Group perspective, I couldn't comment on the issues you raise. I think every healthy democracy has that discussion between privacy and information sharing. There are international standards that come up, and the Canadian government's going to have its mutual evaluation done this year by the IMF. They have to look at the risk, and they look and see if you are implementing the international standards accordingly.

I couldn't comment because I'm not an expert on that situation with the law you're....

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I don't know, Mr. Rudner. Do you want to come in on this?

9:10 a.m.

Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus, Carleton University, As an Individual

Prof. Martin Rudner

Yes, thank you. In my opinion—and I'm not a lawyer, but I have studied the terrorism financing issue here in Canada—I think the two cases you just raised did challenge the Canadian Constitution and quite wisely, I think. The Canadian courts have determined they were unconstitutional, but after all, the information about terrorism financing doesn't necessarily derive from the lawyers serving different organizations. There are other means of acquiring that intelligence.

In my own opinion—and we could discuss this—I think we want an expanded or an enhanced investigative capacity on the part of FINTRAC and other related Canadian intelligence organizations to focus precisely in Canada and abroad on terrorism financing. It wouldn't violate the relationship between clients and lawyers. It would seek out intelligence from the sources of terrorism financing.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Let's go beyond that because Bill C-51 imagines similar warrantless searches through CSIS, our spy agency, of individuals without a lawyer involved where there's not a judicial oversight component. This has already been deemed by law experts that have appeared before House of Commons committees as to be unconstitutional.

One wonders what the effort is for if all it does is lead to legal wrangling and eventually striking down provisions of the law the government says are so vital.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Point of order.

Mr. Adler.