Finance Committee on Oct. 20th, 2017

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The results seem impressive. A success rate of 96% is excellent. The numbers don't lie.

[Chief Roberta Jamieson]

We're very proud of the track record we have as a national charity. We connect directly with students, and I think that is a very important part of our work. We reach out to them. We also are a repository and the only place in the country that has any data on first nations, Métis, and Inuit youth by geography, age, socio-economic well-being. We ask them what their plans are for the future, what they see as their barriers. We pride ourselves on our relationships that we're developing directly with students. I think that's important to them, but we need to do a lot more.

Some would say that the ask I've put forward is modest. Yes, there could easily be another zero on that, and in the past I've asked for more. I'm also a realist and I know what is possible, and I also know that as we prove the statistical success, I will be back and I will continue to ask for additional funds, because the case is self-evident, I believe, in terms of the importance of making investments in Canada's future.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

I will now turn to you, Ms. Simon. Once again, I must say that I am very familiar with the work and services that your organization provides.

An article published last week in The New York Times mentions the soaring rate of anxiety among young people. According to the article, cognitive behavioural therapy is a good way to treat anxiety, but the best treatment is to have face-to-face interactions.

What is your organization doing to ensure that those young people will use those sorts of services?

[Alisa Simon]

One of the things we do at Kids Help Phone is ensure that there is a front door that every young person in Canada can get through to talk to an adult about what's bothering them, and we provide a single counselling session to that young person. For many young people, that's enough: they need somebody to listen to, reduce their distress, come up with a plan, maybe practise that plan. That plan might be that they're going to connect with a family member or a teacher or a friend and they need to know there is hope. That's what we evaluate. Are we making that difference? For many young people, that's not enough, particularly as you were mentioning, with increasing rates of anxiety, but also depression and other mental illnesses. Those young people often need more.

Kids Help Phone has the largest database in Canada that we collect and maintain of every community-based service where young people can get mental health supports, but also LGBTQ support groups, food banks. Any service that's available to young people, we collect and maintain. We make referrals to young people into systems, so they can receive the CBT treatment or other treatments.

The reality is that even when we're able to make a referral, there are tremendous wait-lists for services, so Kids Help Phone is the place that those young people—we refer them to a community mental health agency and we say while they're waiting for treatment, continue to call or chat with us. Then when they get into treatment, we know that those young people are often experiencing significant distress when every other service in Canada is closed. Even if they're in treatment, if they're experiencing anxiety suddenly at two in the morning, they can come back to Kids Help Phone.

Finally, the hope with treatment is that it ends. You go through a significant amount of treatment, whatever your practitioner decides you need, and then you are done, but whether it's two weeks or two months or two years later, young people are going to experience some kind of challenge, because we all face challenges. If they're triggered and that anxiety comes back, come back to Kids Help Phone. Again, maybe we can help you in that one session or we can connect you to a service that will meet your needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, all. Five minutes goes faster than seven, Greg.

Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was going to ask Indspire a bunch of questions. I know we've met before. I also want to say to Fiona Crean, the chief operating officer who is in the audience, that it's fantastic work that you do. We sat down for almost an hour, I think, just to talk about it. You could probably add an extra zero. The bang for the buck is there.

I really want to focus on the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation Canada, on the DTC, the disability tax credit. You said as of May 1 this year sufferers of type 1 diabetes have been getting refused by the CRA for the DTC.

[Dave Prowten]

That's correct.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It just clicked in my memory. A constituent of mine, a tax consultant who helps people apply for the DTC, told me that they are now starting to say that an adult who independently manages insulin therapy on a regular basis does not generally “meet the 14-hour per week requirement unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

That was in a letter of refusal that he received.

Could you explain that a little more? How much actual work goes into managing diabetes?

[Dave Prowten]

Sure, and thank you.

It's a very complicated disease. It's not just that you check your blood sugar and determine how much insulin to give. You're literally calculating, based on the food on your plate, every meal. If you're doing exercise, you want to be monitoring your blood sugar. Then you're doing that on a regular basis during the course of the day.

You can argue it's easily a 24-7, 365 disease. It's not, as I said earlier, a “take three pills and call me in the morning” sort of thing.

We actually have people who have recorded the number of minutes they have taken. They get past the two hours per day threshold. What we are also learning is with this technology that is coming out, a pump or a continuous glucose monitor, they're actually more engaged in their disease. It makes the range they're in better, but they're actually more engaged, which is better for them, because they're in the better range, but it also—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It takes more time out of their day to manage....

[Dave Prowten]

Yes, oddly enough. There are going to be fewer complications down the road, though, but it's actually strange because in these letters—we're seeing it as well—I think there's an implied assumption that the technology is making it less time-consuming.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I totally understand. A chronic disease changes your lifestyle. I have three kids with a chronic kidney condition, and it totally affects everything you do.

There is, though, a decision that was rendered this year by Justice Gaston Jorré, on February 20, 2017, on PKU, which is phenylketonuria, wherein the justice found, on the side of the person who had been refused the DTC application, that the issue was about the medical food preparation, the time it takes to actually prepare food and make sure it has the correct level of nutrition that they can intake.

It is interesting that the CRA is now refusing type 1 diabetes sufferers from accessing the DTC, whereas in the case of PKU they actually had to go to court in order to win their case. The income tax sections are 118.3 and 118.4, exactly on the same types of issues.

Do you have any more information on why the CRA is doing this?

[Dave Prowten]

It's difficult for us to understand. It seems that it's something that they have reviewed and determined with some of their internal and medical reviews. We were not consulted nor were other groups. We've talked to people like Diabetes Canada. This found us in the last few months, because people are reaching out to us.

We are confused and perplexed because it's something that seems like it was established to help people and it's now being taken away.

[Patrick Tohill, Director, Government Relations, Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation Canada]

I'd like to add something. This is from a news release from Peter Weissman and Lembi Buchanan, on May 19, in connection to the large number of Canadians with disabilities, with psychiatric illness who have been denied the DTC recently. These two individuals were formerly part of the disability advisory committee that was set up in 2004, but then it dissolved shortly after the changes were made in 2006. I quote from their news release:

“It has become virtually impossible for the majority of people living with severe psychiatric illnesses to assess the DTC without appealing to the Tax Court of Canada,” says mental health advocate, Lembi Buchanan, who has successfully represented dozens of individuals navigating the appeal process. “CRA civil servants with insufficient medical and legal training are sending rejection notices without providing valid reasons for their decisions. Canadian taxpayers should be able to access the DTC without having to pay expensive legal bills for lawyers to represent them in court or excessive contingency fees to companies to act on their behalf.”

We believe the same thing is happening with PKU, with psychiatric illness, and with many other disabilities that we're seeing with type 1 diabetes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

In the case of PKU, there is actually a court decision of February 20 that should be enforceable against the CRA to say that in the cases of people with PKU, and specifically medical food preparation, which is what diabetes sufferers do, in those cases, the CRA should be complying with the court decision. But you are saying that at least since May 1, they have been doing something completely different from what the ruling of the judge in that particular case said to do.

[Dave Prowten]

It seems that the vast majority of cases are rejections, not acceptances.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have to end it there. Thank you, folks.

I know that in my own constituency office there are three cases related to this particular ruling by the CRA.

Mr. Boulerice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Scongack, I'm going to ask you some quick questions.

How much does Bruce Power invest in research and development? Is your company interested in nuclear fusion research and development?

A number of universities and small businesses are currently working on what is potentially the cleanest energy source in the world and a basically unlimited resource. Might your company be interested in that?

[James Scongack]

That may be a quick question, but I don't know if it will be a quick answer, but I'll do my best.

The answer is we're very focused on the generation of nuclear power. What I can tell you in terms of our investment in nuclear, in terms of our technology, there are really two main areas we're focused on.

The first is, as we're life-extending our units, there are tens and hundreds of millions of dollars of investment in reactor tooling. It allows you to essentially inspect the reactor, maintain the reactor, life-extend the reactor, and then eventually replace the reactor components.

There's also an organization that is actually funded by all nuclear operators of CANDU units called the CANDU Owners Group. It is, if you aggregate it together, one of the leading investors in research and development in Canada on a private sector basis.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Prowten, I was quite taken aback by your presentation.

I am sort of familiar with the situation because my wife has diabetes. Three times a day, I see her calculate everything she eats and assess the impact. Since she is very athletic, there are consequences. The adjustment takes a lot of time because you have to calculate the carbohydrate content. You then need to give yourself an insulin injection.

You are making two requests. First of all, you want calculating carbohydrates in meals to be part of the time spent avoiding a potentially very serious disease. Finally, you want to reduce the number of hours in the eligibility threshold from 14 hours per week to 10.

In your opinion, what percentage of people with diabetes could have access to the tax credit if both requests were accepted?

[Dave Prowten]

Our goal would be that it would apply to everybody. We think this would make it possible, because we believe carb counting is actually more significant than people actually understand. With respect to the 14 to 10, the 14 hours seemed like it was arbitrary to begin with, so we're trying to lower it so that, in essence, everybody would have access to this credit.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Eaton, thank you very much for your presentation.

Montreal also has a hard time integrating recent immigrants into the labour market. The non-recognition of qualifications means that many highly qualified people, who could be much more productive in our economy, are left behind and take jobs that, let's say, do not live up to their expectations and abilities. As a result, they suffer and the community suffers.

I really liked your proposal on mentoring. First, this opens the doors to a network for the mentees. Mentees do not have those connections, since they do not come from here. Second, it probably allows mentors to become more open-minded. Mentoring helps employers to be more open. In my opinion, that's an absolutely brilliant idea.

I just have one question about it. Who will pay for it?

[Margaret Eaton]

That's a great question.

At the moment, we cobble together funding in order to promote and support the program. Employers tend to donate the time of the mentor, so that adds up to over $1 million in support to our program alone each year. The federal government has given a small amount of funding to our mentoring program and contributes to some mentoring programs across the country. Our program is largely funded by the Ontario government at this point through the Ministry of Advanced Education and Skills Development. We're also working at the federal level with ESDC to look at doing a program that would measure the impact of mentoring versus a control group to find out if this is, indeed, the best intervention out there. We believe that those results will be positive.

We know, though, that at this point, we're only serving about 1,700 mentees in the GTA. The Boston Consulting Group says that it could easily be 6,000 to 10,000 each year, and across the country another 30,000. We know that economic immigrants, the largest group of immigrants coming to the country, need that kind of support, but to really get it to scale, we feel that there needs to be more federal support for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Before I turn to Ms. O'Connell on the question of how we pay for it, I'll turn to you, Ms. Jamieson.

What you do—and I'm aware of it—is really getting mileage for every dollar spent. I raise this question in part because in budget 2016 there was $8.4 billion over five years for indigenous affairs, and $2 billion on top of that for addressing the water issues.

Whether it's indigenous affairs or whether it's agriculture, we can't continue to spend, spend, spend. Do you know if there's any area that can be re-profiled where there's programming that we're not meeting the objectives that monies were targeted for, so that the monies are spent where it does meet the objectives?

[Chief Roberta Jamieson]

Yes. I can tell you the money spent with Indspire meets the objectives. The question you ask is one more for the “deliverology” gurus, I would think.

I can tell you this also, Mr. Easter. When RCAP did their report in the 1980s, they came up with 400 recommendations. People asked how much it would cost, and the answer was $20 billion. Then there was a report done by RBC, I think, the bank, by Charlie Coffey. It was called “The Cost of Doing Nothing”. He quite rightly said that it's money, serious money, but what money will it cost to do nothing? Sadly, that is exactly what Canadians did at the time—not much—and here we are. It sounds like a great deal of money.

Let me tell you that the real question is how much are we spending to keep the unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship going now with indigenous peoples? It's many, many, many billions. Also, what are we losing in productivity in Canada's GDP by excluding so many indigenous people from the workforce? I think those numbers far outweigh the $8 billion, the $2 billion, the numbers that you've cited.

I think it's a worthy investment. It's an investment Canadians are making now. But at the other end of the spectrum, I ask us to flip the telescope around to invest in positive change, and that will pay for itself.

I don't want to give your clerk more work, but I suggest that you might ask your clerk to dig out the very recent Drummond-Sharpe report from the Centre for the Study of Living Standards. They make a very compelling case for the $36 billion-plus that would be added to Canada's GDP if we closed the gap in education and employment for indigenous people. That's a very big number.