Evidence of meeting #125 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was changes.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Lee  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Hassan Yussuff  President, Canadian Labour Congress
Chandra Pasma  Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Elizabeth Dandy  Director of Equality, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Benjamin Davis  National Vice-President, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada
Katie Walmsley  President, Portfolio Management Association of Canada
Eric Adelson  Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada
Vicky Smallman  National Director, Women's and Human Rights, Canadian Labour Congress
Michael McDonald  Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Kate McInturff  Senior Researcher, National Office, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Corinne Pohlmann  Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Cory Mulvihill  Lead Executive, Policy and Public Affairs, MaRS Discovery District
Theresa Agnew  Chief Executive Officer, Nurse Practitioners’ Association of Ontario

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

Mr. Yussuff, thank you for your testimony.

In the budget implementation act, there are also a lot of protections for unpaid interns. What are your comments on that? I believe you did an interview in the Toronto Star in regard to that as well.

4 p.m.

President, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

Yes, we've been a strong advocate. There has of course been documentation about the exploitation of unpaid interns. I'm honoured and pleased to see that the government has listened to the presentations that have been made on closing this loophole. Internship is an integral part of giving young people an opportunity to gain skills, but there's no clear benefit when those who have taken advantage of this opportunity keep exploiting young people.

We hire interns in Canada for the CLC in the summertime. Of course, we establish a mechanism to pay them properly and we make sure they have an opportunity not only to earn an income but to gain experience at the same time. There have been a lot of stories documented in regard to how this exploitation really has been to the detriment of young people in terms of getting a good opportunity.

It's good that the government is fixing this piece in the Canada Labour Code going forward. I think it will be an impetus for the provinces and territories to share some of the experience, and hopefully amend their codes accordingly to bring about the same protection for young people who are getting an internship at the provincial and territorial levels.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

I couldn't agree with you more. I interned, as a younger Canadian, and there are a lot of benefits to internships, but at the same time, we have to protect young Canadians, to make sure they're not taken advantage of by employers.

Chandra, you said the recommendation for advance notice is one week. Could you elaborate on why? From 24 hours to one week seems like a drastic jump.

4:05 p.m.

Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Chandra Pasma

Right, but we think the federal standard should meet or exceed the best provincial standard, and the best provincial standard is Saskatchewan, which requires one week's written notice of your schedule and of any changes to your schedule.

Twenty-four hours just isn't enough, for a number of reasons. For example, if you book a medical appointment, a lot of establishments will require you to give 48 hours' notice for cancellation or you have to pay a fee, so if your employer calls 24 hours before and says they need you to come in and you're not allowed to say no, then you've incurred the fee and you don't get to have your medical appointment.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

That's a really good, practical example. I just feel that seven days is a lot in 2017, when things are changing so quickly and e-commerce is taking over, and that corporations have to be adaptive and so do employees. There has to be a happy medium there.

But you gave an excellent example. Even I had to cancel an appointment last week and got charged for it, although my boss doesn't give me notice.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'm giving you notice; your time's up.

Go ahead, Mr. Albas.

November 9th, 2017 / 4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for your attendance and your expertise today. I'm going to start with Dr. Lee.

Dr. Lee, the Conservative Party members have been voicing that there is not enough focus by the government, in particular on seniors and our aging demographics. They chose not to have a minister of seniors, which would address some of these issues in public policy, where there are many different areas, everything from employment to health care and other social needs including the pension system, a very important part.

You've mentioned a lot of concerns in terms of our demographics, but how do you think this grey tsunami will impact our national finances going forward?

4:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Ian Lee

I've mentioned it, and I'll just reference it again. There has been a plethora of studies in the past 10 or 15 years by very prestigious and authoritative institutions. The World Bank, the IMF, and the OECD have published on this.

First and foremost, the exit of such large numbers from the workforce is going to slow down GDP. That's going to reduce the flow of revenues to federal and provincial governments. This had been modelled. It has been shown by these various forecasting agencies. Finance Canada, I'm told, has studies internally that show this. The impact is going to show up in reduced economic growth and reduced revenues down the road. That's the first problem.

The second problem is that the dependency ratio is collapsing—and I mean collapsing—from the late 1960s, where it was somewhere around seven workers for every dependent or retiree. The dependency ratio is going to go down to 2.4. I guess I have an understanding of basic arithmetic, and to think there's going to be 2.4 young people supporting one of me, is a scary thought. We're living a lot longer, and as we get above that 75 point—and the break point is somewhere between 75 and 80 when health care costs start to absolutely skyrocket—something's going to give. That's why the OECD is using very apocalyptic language in its predictions, so is the IMF.

I've talked to colleagues in the universities, and they say, “Yes, yes, okay, revenues will be down a little bit tighter.” I don't think it's going to be like that. Every forecast I've looked at shows it's going to be far worse than that. There are things we can do to mitigate it, such as trying to keep seniors in their homes and trying to keep them working longer.

Very quickly, I've met Fred Vettese, the chief economist at Morneau Shepell, at several pension conferences. He's a brilliant individual, one of the leading authorities on this. He says our pension policies are incoherent. Private pension plans allow you to retire at 55, the OAS age is 65, and the CPP age is 60 to 70. We could start by standardizing and adopting the CPP model, say, and amend OAS and the tax act for private pension plans. There are things we can do to mitigate this tsunami that's coming.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Therefore, one part would be a structural change across pensions. Obviously, the federal government touches a lot of touch points with old age security, CPP, and the guaranteed income supplement, but lots of provinces also have different pension legislation, so does this need to be not just whole-of-government, but whole-of-governments in Canada?

4:10 p.m.

Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Ian Lee

Exactly. Yes, I've mentioned this and I think several people have said this. Why do we have to draw down our RRSP or our pension at 71? Why can't I keep working until 75 without drawing down my pension and allow me to top up my pension because I'm postponing it, and things like that? It's completely arbitrary at 71.

Dr. Mintz has written about this as well. The government is going to get its take when the person eventually retires or passes away. It's not as if the money is being abated. It will eventually come to the federal government, but that's another area that should be looked at.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I'm concerned because if we look at Japan, Japan has had aging demographics, coupled with a slowing economy and they have been, I believe, perpetually below economic numbers for quite a long time, which creates a lot of issues for government.

I've been asking for and I believe the parliamentary budget office has been working toward getting better data to break out, for example, our national debt, but not just by the federal government but also by provinces, and then demographics, so we can start to see where the real critical points would be.

I know that in the last Parliament some members of Parliament, and some senators from the Maritimes as well, had discussed some structural changes perhaps. Does it make sense to have multiple health authorities rather than trying to harmonize and work together?

Are these some of the strategies we're going to need to take? Again, if you look at Japan it's very difficult to boost growth to what people traditionally view as being normal, which is post-World War II numbers. What are some of the things we can do?

4:10 p.m.

Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

Dr. Ian Lee

First, Japan is an excellent example because, according to the OECD, it has aged more rapidly and has an older age distribution than any other country in the world. There are differences between Japan and us because, of course, we are still growing, and we are bringing in immigrants and Japan isn't. Nonetheless, if you want to look at the impact of aging on the economy, Japan is an excellent example.

I don't want to be simplistic, but I think very broadly there is a very big picture. We should be doing two things. You, as parliamentarians, should be saying, “What can we do to keep people in the workforce longer?” The idea of freedom 55 is a fraud. We're allowing people to leave the workforce when we need more people in the workforce and we're creating the problems that creates on employer pensions. We shouldn't even allow a pension plan to allow someone to retire before 60, or even 65.

If I can remind everybody, the OECD is urging every western government to push up the minimum age of pensionable retirement to 68.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'd like to thank you all.

Mr. Dusseault.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for joining us today.

I especially want to focus on the planned changes to the Canada Labour Code. I am happy to be able to hear your point of view. The officials who have made presentations to us about the Canada Labour Code seem rather to be saying that everything is great, everything is rosy, that the consultations have been wonderful, and that everyone is on exactly the same page.

But today, we have been told about possible solutions that can specifically improve certain clauses in the bill; I am glad about that. When we do the clause-by-clause study, we will be able to try to come up with some amendments. But no one has talked about the documents that are requested in clause 206.7(5), which deals with leave for victims of domestic violence. It reads as follows:

206.7(5) The employer may, in writing and no later than 15 days after an employee’s return to work, request the employee to provide documentation to support the reasons for the leave.

In other words, the employer can ask the employee to prove that the leave was justified.

I would like to know whether that provision concerns you, or, conversely, whether you see no problem with it. My question goes to Mr. Yussuff, Ms. Pasma, Ms. Dandy, or to anyone else who wants to reply.

4:10 p.m.

Vicky Smallman National Director, Women's and Human Rights, Canadian Labour Congress

I'll answer that in English, if that's okay.

Obviously, sometimes it's difficult for people who are experiencing domestic violence to provide the traditional kinds of documentation, and we don't want the requirements for documentation to impose barriers on people who are already going through very challenging situations. You don't want to do things like require a restraining order or something like that because there are many different types of domestic violence and people experience it in different ways and have different needs, so there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Ideally, employers shouldn't require that kind of evidence, certainly not before. After the fact they could provide a letter from a lawyer or a statement from a worker at a women's shelter, for example, or another support service, as long as there is some flexibility in the type of documentation, but we would prefer that there not be a requirement.

That's the kind of stuff, though, that I think we could work out in regulations as opposed to putting it in the legislation per se.

I'm giving you a bit of a mixed answer. If you're going to have it in there, then after the fact makes more sense than requiring it up front.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Do you subscribe to those comments?

4:15 p.m.

Director of Equality, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Elizabeth Dandy

Yes. We do recommend that the requirement for documentation be put in the regulations and not be part of the legislation.

We agree that it could be very challenging for a survivor leaving a violent situation to access documentation while doing the basic tasks that she needs to do to make herself safe—for example, if she needs to go out and open a bank account, or things like that. The purpose of the leave is to do those basic tasks, which may take an hour or two at a time.

We agree with CLC on that and recommend that it be in the regulations.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I would now like to ask Ms. Pasma a question, as she has already mentioned many reasons why an employer can refuse to provide flexible work arrangements. The range of reasons is so great that it can include anything. Basically, the employer can refuse to provide flexible work arrangements under practically any circumstances.

Ms. Pasma, you have often said that we should rely on what is done in other jurisdictions in Canada.

In your view, is there another jurisdiction that might have a higher standard, meaning restrictions or limitations on an employer's possible excuses. Are you able to direct us to a more appropriate jurisdiction?

4:15 p.m.

Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Chandra Pasma

I am not sure there is another jurisdiction that has it specifically in its labour code that an employee can ask for flexible work arrangements, probably because it's not that meaningful. Employees do ask for flexible work arrangements all the time.

The bigger problem is that employees are being made flexible when they don't want to be flexible—workers who are casual, temporary, on call, or on contract. The labour code really needs to be updated to deal with that situation, especially when people are being kept as temporary employees in permanent positions, so that they never get to be permanent even though they are really doing a permanent job.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I would like to ask another question about leave for victims of domestic violence.

Does that type of leave exist in other provinces? Do the pieces of legislation before us compare to those in any provinces?

4:15 p.m.

President, Canadian Labour Congress

Hassan Yussuff

Currently, the Manitoba labour code provides for paid leave in domestic violence. The Ontario government recently had a broad consultative process regarding updating their employment standards and labour code. Currently, there are recommendations from the committee before the legislature, and very shortly the government will be announcing the position they will be taking on paid versus unpaid in regard to domestic violence.

The point we have enunciated is that it's good that the government has recognized this in the federal code and is providing for time off. The challenge is that, for individuals who are facing domestic violence, you are quite often going to perpetuate the situation they are in.

We can see from other jurisdictions, certainly from Manitoba, that you can achieve pay. Countries where this has been adopted and in place longer than in Canada—Australia, for example—do provide for domestic violence. More importantly, when people have to exercise this leave, they use only about two and a half days, on average, in situations where they need time off.

Our argument is that it's good that the government is moving in the right direction, but we would prefer they look at the importance of addressing the need for providing paid leave for individuals who may require it to deal with domestic violence.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll have to end it there.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses who have joined us here today.

Each witness has spoken about the importance of having social cohesion in Canada. There are a number of ways to achieve that objective, not only through prosperity, but also in the way we treat the less fortunate. I am not only talking about the less fortunate in terms of income, but also those who are less fortunate than all of us around the table today.

Mr. Davis, I would like to start with you.

Through your stories and your analysis, you mentioned the importance of ensuring a degree of flexibility in the Canada Labour Code, so that people with chronic diseases, like multiple sclerosis, feel included by the amendments made to the labour code.

Can you tell us more about the importance of allowing people with chronic diseases, like multiple sclerosis, to work with dignity? To what extent are these changes important? Are there any other solutions we could explore for the next amendments?

4:20 p.m.

National Vice-President, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada

Benjamin Davis

In regard to dignity, I would comment that what we hear from people living with MS and other episodic illnesses is that they want to work. They want to have the satisfaction of being able to make a contribution. If they're currently unable to work and they reflect back, that's often their first comment, “I wish I could have kept working longer.” If you have MS, there's a 60% unemployment rate, so the social side of being able to make a contribution is very important.

The current system is a binary switch—either you're in or you're out. One of the additional recommendations we would certainly have is to make sickness benefits flexible. In my opening comments, I spoke about a work-sharing program. In addition to that, right now you have to take sickness benefits all in one lump sum. For an episodic illness, there could be a few days when you're unable to make a contribution, but when you're in remission, you're able to come back to work. The rigidity of that particular program makes it very difficult for individuals to feel as though they're making a positive contribution.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Davis.

Mr. Yussuff and Ms. Smallman, you also talked about the importance of recognizing situation of family violence and to have provisions in the Canada Labour Code in order to address this evil.

I would like to ask a question similar to the one I asked Mr. Davis. In order to guarantee all employees, all Canadians, a degree of dignity, some flexibility is needed so that those who find themselves in situations of family violence—most frequently women—can keeps their jobs.

Can you please tell us more about that?