Evidence of meeting #125 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was changes.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Lee  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Hassan Yussuff  President, Canadian Labour Congress
Chandra Pasma  Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Elizabeth Dandy  Director of Equality, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Benjamin Davis  National Vice-President, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada
Katie Walmsley  President, Portfolio Management Association of Canada
Eric Adelson  Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada
Vicky Smallman  National Director, Women's and Human Rights, Canadian Labour Congress
Michael McDonald  Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Kate McInturff  Senior Researcher, National Office, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Corinne Pohlmann  Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Cory Mulvihill  Lead Executive, Policy and Public Affairs, MaRS Discovery District
Theresa Agnew  Chief Executive Officer, Nurse Practitioners’ Association of Ontario

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to an order of reference of Wednesday, November 8, 2017, the committee is studying Bill C-63, a second act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 22, 2017, and other measures.

Welcome to all the witnesses. We appreciate your coming.

Before I go to the witnesses, we will just change the agenda a little bit.

At 6:15 we will deal with Mr. Dusseault's motion, which was tabled on Tuesday and has had the proper amount of notice. After that discussion, we will have to go in camera to deal with some of the business issues of the committee and the costs of holding hearings. If a second panel is here at 10 minutes to five o'clock, we will make the switch then between the panels.

As an individual we have Ian Lee, associate professor at Carleton University.

Ian, the floor is yours. We will try to hold the comments to about five minutes, if we could.

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Ian Lee Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

I thank the committee for inviting me to speak on the issues before us today. First, here are my disclosures. I don't consult to anyone or anything, anywhere, not governments, not unions, not corporations, which means I'm not a registered or unregistered lobbyist. I don't belong to or contribute to any political party. Salient to what I am about to say in the next three and a half minutes, in about 70 days from now, I am passing, involuntarily, into that club called the “seniors of Canada”.

I want to talk briefly about the whole issue of deficits but only as the prelude to talking about the greatest crisis that is facing Canada and every western country, the grey tsunami over the next 20 years or so. It is going to profoundly affect every OECD country.

Before and after the great downsizing of the 1995 federal budget and deficit, there was then, and still remains or continues, extensive debate in Canada concerning what I believe are two false premises concerning deficit reduction. First, it's argued that Canada is a very wealthy country and deficits will not break or bankrupt this country, so don't worry about it. The second argument that's put forward, which I believe is a false argument, is that policy X, let's say the Canada benefit, is an excellent policy; therefore, deficits are justified.

I just want to put those arguments to bed and then get on to the bigger issue.

Of course, Canada is a wealthy country. I've travelled all around the world, in many developing and developed countries, and we are fabulously wealthy on a per person basis, one of the wealthiest countries in the world. It is approximately equal with Germany on a per person basis, and Germany is indeed the wealthiest country in Europe. However, that's no justification to squander scarce public resources. Secondly, yes, there are excellent policies on the books, but that does not justify deficits. Rather, it justifies pruning and judicious program review of, to paraphrase Governor Carney, “dead programs”.

In the very few minutes I have, I want turn to this issue because I really do think it's the biggest crisis facing us. The IMF has said so. It has said that it's going to exceed, far more greatly, the financial crisis of 2008-09.

I first became interested in the subject after reading a book in 1999, called Gray Dawn: How the Coming Age Wave Will Transform America—and the World. It was authored by Pete Peterson, the former commerce secretary under President Ronald Reagan, who later founded what became the very prestigious Peterson Institute in Washington.

In the years since, a plethora of authoritative empirical studies have been published by the OECD, the World Bank, the IMF, and reputable think tanks such as Brookings, the Peterson Institute, the C.D. Howe Institute, and the Macdonald-Laurier Institute on the subject of aging, on the macro-economic economy, and on tax receipts and economic growth and productivity.

Both the IMF and the OECD have produced increasingly dire studies and warnings about the increasingly serious squeeze on fiscal revenues caused by a smaller percentage of the workforce, the employed paying taxes, and the concomitant dramatic increase in health care costs for the exploding number of seniors.

As one American demographer recently noted, in approximately 20 years, all of North America is going to look like Florida but without the warm weather. In other words, one in four people will be over the age of 65. As I've already mentioned, the IMF has argued that the aging crisis is going to impose far larger costs on our society over the next 10, 20, or 30 years than the 2008-09 crisis.

Closer to home, former governor and former deputy minister of health David Dodge published in 2011 a superb report called “Chronic Healthcare Spending Disease”, showing the gargantuan amount of health care per capita for those over age 75. The numbers of people over age 75 are skyrocketing.

Very recently, the PBO published a report showing that provincial budgets are going to become increasingly bleak going forward, because most costs associated with aging are funded by the provinces.

Having read and absorbed a number of these excellent studies, I've come to the conclusion that the cost of pensions will not be the problem that the OECD argues they'll become in Europe, precisely because of Canada's prudent, responsible, risk-diversified, four-pillar pension system, which is unfortunately criticized by some of my colleagues in academia. This is not to minimize the drag and loss of productivity and economic growth caused by the enormous loss of workers, but every serious economic study, including by Finance Canada, shows long-term GDP declines of 1% to 2% annually.

I've concluded that the vulnerability in Canada, and likely elsewhere, is health care. As Dr. Dodge demonstrated in his report using CIHI data, the older we are above 65, the more we consume per person per year.

As we move from our seventies to our eighties—and this is in his report from CIHI—we consume an average of around $25,000 per person per year. This is the equivalent of consuming a new Honda Civic every year. Do we believe the young people in this room or across this country are shouting, “Whoopee! I'm going to get to pay a lot more taxes in the future to support Ian Lee and all the boomers in the years ahead”? For these reasons the overarching purpose of government policy concerning seniors should be focused on keeping this huge increase in seniors in their homes for as long as possible.

What follows is what I really want to talk about very quickly, and then I'll wrap up.

Firstly, in terms of pension reform, we need to be discussing a lot more about what we can do, such as eliminating early retirement before 60 across the board and penalizing retirement between 60 and 65. We need pension reform to eliminate incoherence within our policy frameworks, such as OAS allowing 65 retirement, CPP a range of 60 to 70, while employer pensions allow retirement as early as 65. We need to standardize there. We need to end the rule that prohibits RSPs and pensions after 71, in other words, that we have to take it.

Then, secondly, and then I'll finish, Mr. Chair, we need to completely invert the paradigm of health care to a model where we assume health care is delivered within the home. We assume now it's delivered within what I characterize as legacy hospitals—large, enormous, expensive hospitals—rather than local decentralized regional hospitals or community clinics, as a second instance, again, to encourage seniors to remain in our homes.

In conclusion, policy can ameliorate but it will not eliminate the great tsunami that is inevitably coming to Canada and other OECD countries.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

We turn now to the Canadian Labour Congress, Mr. Yussuff, president, and Ms. Smallman, national director for women's and human rights.

3:35 p.m.

Hassan Yussuff President, Canadian Labour Congress

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues and committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you here today. I will discuss the CLC position on two of the issues in the bill, family violence leave and changes to part III of the Canada Labour Code.

For years, the Canadian Labour Congress and the labour movement have insisted that domestic violence must be recognized as a workplace issue. CLC has been a strong advocate for workplace protection and support of victims of domestic violence. Bill C-63 creates a new leave to allow people experiencing domestic violence time off to deal with the effects of the violence and to take steps to address it, and we welcome this action. Unfortunately it falls short of providing support for job protection for people experiencing domestic violence. Designated paid leave is a vital component of helping survivors keep their jobs and their economic security.

Employment is a key pathway to leaving a violent relationship. Dedicated paid leave gives workers the job protection time to do the things they need to do, things to keep them and their children and family members safe. Whether that is obtaining counselling, getting a new bank account, meeting with lawyers or police, it is something people need time to do during standard daytime hours. Dedicated paid leave also gives employees the financial security they need to take steps to leave. This can be an expensive undertaking.

Paid leave is also important given the dynamics of power and control in abusive relationships. Research shows that 90% of domestic violence survivors experience financial control. If accessing unpaid leave results in a lower paycheque than the abuser is expecting, there may be serious consequences for the victim. The unintended result of not providing paid leave is that it may increase risks to workers and create barriers for victims.

We'd also like to flag a concern about the exception clause. We understand that the intention is to ensure that the leave is reserved for victims of domestic violence, and not abusers. However, the exception clause may pose a barrier to victims who end up being accused and charged themselves. This could happen in a situation where they retaliate or stand up to the abuser, or in a situation where the police lay dual charges in regard to domestic violence.

In our opinion, the language of being a victim should suffice to limit the perpetrator's right to the leave. No one should have to choose between not being abused and getting a paycheque. We urge the committee to ensure that the 10 days of family violence leave be paid leave. We also urge that careful attention be paid to the potential barriers created by the details in the provisions.

Regarding the changes in part III of the Canada Labour Code, Bill C-63 contains several important changes to the federal labour standards. Among these steps, the bill reverses the previous government's approval of unpaid internship outside of the approved educational program, requires advance notice for changes to scheduling, allows time off in compensation for overtime work, and provides a limited right to refuse overtime. These are significant and positive steps in the right direction.

However, I would say something about the process. In the spring of this year, the labour program began consulting broadly on the recommendations of the 2006 Arthurs report. It proposes strengthening the compliance and enforcement in part III rights. Our preference continues to be to have integrated and comprehensive discussion about strengthening the federal standards, and constructing an effective compliance and enforcement regime under the code.

I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to present here today and I welcome any questions committee members may have.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Mr. Yussuff.

From the Canadian Union of Public Employees, we have Ms. Pasma, research officer, and Ms. Dandy, director of equality.

The floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Chandra Pasma Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Thank you and good afternoon.

Elizabeth and I are pleased to be here this afternoon to speak to you on behalf of the 651,000 members of the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

I want to start by echoing the comments that were just made by the Canadian Labour Congress about consultation and process. CUPE is disappointed that these changes to the Canada Labour Code are being made in an omnibus budget bill. This means these changes will not get the fulsome scrutiny and debate that they deserve. We recommend that division 8 be separated from Bill C-63 and be studied and voted on separately.

We are also concerned that the changes in Bill C-63 do not go far enough in providing important protections and reasonable access to leaves for workers in the federal jurisdiction. We believe that the federal government should be setting a high standard that meets or exceeds the best provincial standards. Unfortunately, some of the new standards proposed by Bill C-63 are well below the strongest provincial standards. For instance, we are concerned that giving employees only 24 hours' advance notice of schedules or shift changes falls well below the standard of one week's notice set by Saskatchewan.

We are also concerned that the broad exemption in the act could render the requirement meaningless. Advance notice of working hours is important for workers to be able to carry out other activities like child care and education. We also know that uncertainty over work schedules contributes to precarity, stress, and work-life conflict.

Given this, why should the ordinary working of the employer's establishment take precedence and be given the same kind of priority as a serious threat to health and safety? We recommend that the requirement for advance notice be extended from 24 hours to one week, and that the third exemption relating to the ordinary working of the employer's establishment be deleted.

We have the same concern about the right to refuse overtime for family responsibility. Allowing an exemption for the ordinary working of the employer's establishment is too broad, and it means that the employer's rights are being prioritized over the well-being of families and children.

What kind of society are we if a child can be left waiting at day care for mom or dad to pick them up for no other reason than because an industrial establishment would otherwise not be working as it ordinarily does? We recommend that this exemption be deleted, which would also make this proposed section consistent with the best provincial standards.

With regard to the right to request flexible work arrangements, we are concerned that this change does not create a meaningful new right. The proposed section does not require employers to consider a request any more seriously than they might have before. It simply requires employers to provide a response in writing.

CUPE believes that instead of making a symbolic gesture that fails to accomplish real change, the government should be making significant changes in support of the most vulnerable workers: precarious workers who are forced to be flexible against their will.

3:45 p.m.

Elizabeth Dandy Director of Equality, Canadian Union of Public Employees

We are happy that the issue of family violence is being addressed in the Canada Labour Code in the form of a new leave for survivors of family violence. The focus of our recommendations for this proposed section is the need for the leave to be paid and the need to take the leave in less than one-day periods.

Survivors of family violence require stable, ongoing paid employment to enable them to leave violent relationships and seek safety. Unpaid leave defeats the purpose of family violence leave, which should be to give a survivor the financial security needed to achieve safety and stability. Many survivors won't be able to afford to take the leave if it is unpaid.

The bill also allows the employer the discretion to require that the leave be no less than one day's duration. We recommend that survivors be given the flexibility to take the leave in periods of less than one day. Many survivors typically require an hour or two at a time to address a number of basic tasks that they need to carry out to ensure their safety, tasks that the CLC referred to, such as meeting with a lawyer or opening a bank account that is separate from their abuser's.

We would also like to comment on the new leave of five unpaid days for traditional aboriginal practices. We are very concerned about leaving the highly contentious issue of determining indigenous status in the hands of employers. We recommend that the committee consult with indigenous organizations on the requirement to provide documentation proving aboriginal identity, and also on the range of indigenous practices covered by the proposed section.

Thank you. We look forward to questions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Ms. Pasma and Ms. Dandy.

Now we have, from the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada, Mr. Davis, national vice-president.

Welcome.

3:45 p.m.

Benjamin Davis National Vice-President, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada

Good afternoon, and thank you for providing me with the opportunity to speak here today.

I'm here representing all Canadians who are affected by MS on the provisions put forth in this budget implementation act.

MS is a chronic, often—but not always—disabling disease of the central nervous system affecting the brain, spinal cord, and optic nerve. Different people experience different symptoms and outcomes, and there is no one kind of MS.

MS is one of the most common neurological diseases affecting young adults in Canada. Most people are diagnosed between the ages of 15 and 40, ages when many are in the workforce.

In consideration of Bill C-63, division 8 of part 5, we support the amendment to make work work by including more flexible employment policies to allow people with MS and other episodic disabilities to remain in the workforce. This would be good policy for compassionate reasons, for social reasons, and for economic reasons. This would include making improvements to income and disability supports for people who are unable to work or who can work only on an intermittent basis, thereby providing them with a more flexible environment in which they could work.

We support provisions in part 1 that would, first, give more authority to nurse practitioners for tax purposes, allowing them to sign off on a person's health issues, and second, introduce changes that would improve the accuracy and consistency of the income tax legislation and regulations, allowing people living with an episodic disability like MS to receive the disability tax credit, for example.

I could get into a technical discussion, but as you deliberate on the various provisions, please reflect on the following stories from real people living with MS.

Penny worked full time until her MS symptoms took over. She needed a different position. She could still work but needed the flexibility to work part time so she could manage her health. She left her job and is trying find a more flexible environment, but in the meantime, Penny must rely on social assistance. If there were a flexible work-sharing program in place, Penny could have reduced her hours while receiving partial El support, allowing her to stay in the career she loved and costing the social development system less money.

Dave was recovering from a significant relapse of his MS and required full-time nursing for a period of time. However, because he was not gravely ill with a significant risk of dying, his wife couldn't take compassionate care leave. There was no flexibility with this leave, so she had to quit her job to look after Dave, leaving this family with no income at all for several months. Everyone loses in this situation: the family, the individuals, and the labour market. It simply doesn't make sense.

Sharon has been unable to work full time for the past several years because of her MS. Sometimes, when she's feeling well, she can work, but the short-term work keeps her income low. She doesn't fit into the current definition of disability, so she doesn't quality for the disability tax credit, and because her income is low, the credit wouldn't make a difference anyway. Sharon spends an inordinate amount of time trying to navigate the complexity of multiple avenues of partial assistance. A flexible work arrangement could allow Sharon to work consistently but within the parameters of her MS symptoms, giving her financial security.

Time and time again, we hear that people want to work. They can work. They are able, mentally and physically, but it may not always be in the traditional sense of nine to five or regular shift work. There needs to be an avenue for employees to request flexible work arrangements. The current income and social support systems create an environment that forces people with episodic disabilities to be either in the workforce or out. Episodic illness is a square peg in a round hole, with no flexibility at all.

Half of working-age Canadians with disabilities have a disease that is episodic. It comes and it goes. It could be MS, mental health, arthritis, and/or a host of others. Implementing small changes would alleviate some of the financial and human resources burdens on the current system. These changes include allowing more flexibility for employees living with an episodic disease or illness so that they can continue to be in the workforce, contributing to our economy; making the income tax legislation and regulations consistent; and improving the parameters around the definition of disability. These changes would better support people with episodic illnesses, allow them flexible environments in which to contribute to the economy and workforce, cost support systems less, and alleviate economic, emotional, and social stress. They would also decrease pressures on employers to rehire and retrain new workers.

These amendments are the right thing to do for individuals, for families, for society, for the labour force, and for the economy.

Thank you. I'm happy to take any questions.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Davis.

From the Portfolio Management Association of Canada, we have Ms. Walmsley, president; and Mr. Adelson, head of legal, Canada, for Invesco.

3:50 p.m.

Katie Walmsley President, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Mr. Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity to present today.

The Portfolio Management Association of Canada represents over 240 investment management firms from across Canada that collectively manage over $1.6 trillion for Canadians, much of which is pension plans and group and individual RRSPs.

We've presented to this committee frequently over the years, and our recommendations typically are focused on retirement savings and ensuring fair tax treatment of retirement savings, which are typically tax exempt, with the overriding principle that Canadians deserve increased access to low-cost investment opportunities and fairness to help grow their pensions and RRSPs.

Segregated funds are insurance products very similar to mutual funds, but produced by insurance companies that provide returns based on a segregated pool of assets. According to a 2017 report by Strategic Insight, Canadians invest $117 billion in segregated funds. We were very pleased that federal budget 2017 extended the tax-deferred merger rules to segregated funds, which allowed for these funds to merge and gain efficiencies, when appropriate, without negative tax consequences to Canadians holding these hybrid insurance and retirement savings vehicles.

We are here today because there was a bit of an oversight in the budget, we believe, and we would like to request that these rules be extended to prospectus-exempt pooled funds. As you know, most Canadians working for companies typically have one of three types of retirement savings plans. There's a traditional defined benefit plan, which is not growing. The more common types nowadays are defined contribution plans and group RRSPs.

Defined contribution pension plans and group RRSPs frequently invest in pooled funds, as they are much lower cost than traditional retail mutual funds and provide the asset mix diversity needed for Canadians to save for their retirements. Pooled investment vehicles offer Canadians, particularly the middle class, with access to various asset classes on a cost-effective basis, given the ability to find economies of scale by pooling investments and sharing costs.

Unless the investment merger rules are extended beyond segregated funds to the underlying pooled funds that they invest in, a merger at the segregated fund level will be impacted by the tax consequences of the mergers of the underlying pooled funds. This would result in lower investment returns for the average Canadian with an employer-sponsored defined contribution pension plan.

My colleague, Eric Adelson, will now provide more detail and a specific example.

November 9th, 2017 / 3:55 p.m.

Eric Adelson Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Thank you, Katie.

Investment fund companies manage many funds for insurance companies that are accessed by Canadians through group retirement savings programs or defined contribution pension plans. According to a 2017 report by Strategic Insight, Canadians invested $65 billion in pooled funds, and the main source of this investment is employer-sponsored defined contribution pension plans.

Funds grow and decline with employee population, and to manage these on a low-cost basis to optimize returns, companies need to be able to merge funds on occasion without negatively impacting the end investor. The extension of the tax-deferred merger rules to prospectus-exempt pooled funds would provide consistent tax treatment of mutual funds and segregated funds for the benefit of Canadian savers. The most common example of this is what we would call “target date” funds.

In most defined contribution pension plans, target date funds are the default investment option, so a great many middle-class Canadians own target date funds. These funds have a maturity date, which is included in the name of the fund, and use an asset allocation strategy that gets more conservative the closer you get to maturity. If someone anticipates retiring in 2030, they would invest in a fund with 2030 in the name of the fund.

At maturity, the investor typically retires, and they don't necessarily want to take a lump sum immediately. They can take that, but more typically, we would merge the fund into a broader, diversified fund through which the investor can draw down over time. This gives investors an easy-to-exercise choice of what to do with their retirement savings.

The problem is, if the target date funds hold stocks and bonds directly, we can merge the funds and defer taxes until the investor withdraws money, but if the target date fund holds pooled funds, which in turn hold stocks and bonds, the target date fund merger would give rise to immediate tax consequences, which differs from regular mutual funds and insurance company segregated fund products.

3:55 p.m.

President, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Katie Walmsley

We thank the committee for the opportunity to present and welcome questions.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

We'll go to seven-minute rounds, and the first is for Mr. Grewal.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today. It's much appreciated.

I'm going to talk about what I just heard from the Portfolio Management Association of Canada.

Can you quickly restate that example you gave? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's held in mutual funds, there wouldn't be negative tax consequences, and if it's held in pooled funds there would be negative tax consequences. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Eric Adelson

Yes, that's correct. Keep in mind that, from an Income Tax Act perspective, the only difference, really, between a pooled fund and a regular mutual fund is the number of people who hold it. A regular mutual fund has to have 150 unitholders, each holding at least $500. If you don't meet that test, then you're a pooled fund and the rules are more restrictive under the tax code. The problem is that the people who hold the pooled funds are buying it through a collective.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

Okay. What percentage of Canadians, when they're planning for retirement, are taking pooled funds versus mutual funds? What are the advantages and disadvantages for, let's say, a 32-year-old person like me?

4 p.m.

Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Eric Adelson

I'm not sure of the percentage.

4 p.m.

President, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Katie Walmsley

Yes. I'm not sure of the percentage, but we know that group RRSPs and defined contribution plans are typically invested in pooled funds, and that's $65 billion, whereas mutual funds are the ones that are typically accessed by the general public, not through the employer-sponsored plans. In the employer-sponsored plans, they want to maximize the investment returns and keep the costs low, so pooled funds are a much more efficient vehicle because they're not subject to a lot of the legal disclosure requirements. They're not going to the general public. They're going to a specific employer-sponsored plan. It's a lower percentage, but it's....

The $117 billion in segregated insurance products was addressed in the budget, but the $65 billion was missed. We believe it was just an oversight. Segregated funds and mutual funds are more known to the general public and regulators. Pooled funds are a little lower on the radar, but in the real world, that's what group RRSPs and defined contribution pension plans are utilizing.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

You gave an example of the 2030 pooled fund. On the day we reach 2030, it would be a deemed disposition on that day, and you would have tax consequences on it.

4 p.m.

Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Eric Adelson

What would happen is that if there were no merger, the fund would be forced to wind up at that point, and there would be those tax consequences.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

Okay. If there were a merger, would there still be tax consequences?

4 p.m.

Head of Legal - Canada, Invesco, and Representative, Portfolio Management Association of Canada

Eric Adelson

It would be deferred. In your RRSP, for example, your contributions grow without incurring tax consequences. It's only when you draw down to live off the money that you pay the tax, as you draw it down.

We just want to put this on an equal footing.

Because they're holding pooled funds, when they merge, there would be a tax hit right away. You would lose your whole deferral. Let's say that you're only 65 when you retire. You might live to 95. That pool of money you have when you hit 65 is what you're going to draw down on for the rest of your life—and hopefully invest some of it to pay off the taxes as well—to keep funding your retirement. If you were in a regular mutual fund at that point, you could just draw down the money and you wouldn't have a tax hit, but because there's the pooled fund interposed, you have a tax hit.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

That's interesting. You learn something every day on the finance committee.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Absolutely.