Finance Committee on Feb. 26th, 2018

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As a matter of fact, again, to follow up on what the chair said, it would be great to have that example of a money laundering case. It would also be very helpful to get back to Mr. Sorbara's point that if we had a list of all the successful prosecutions of money laundering cases—notwithstanding the distinction you made, but just money laundering cases, if it were at all possible over the last five years—that would be very helpful as well to understand the flow there.

I would like to come back to a couple of reports ago. The Senate banking and commerce committee did the first study on the 2000 legislation that started to include the anti-terrorism financing act. Also, in the review in 2013, the same committee pointed out the gap that exists, as we started off the conversation, in what happens with the legal profession in terms of whether or not we can identify an official ownership or understand what is going on in those transactions.

For the last 15 years now, we've been talking about the same issue.

Mr. Saint-Denis, you said that you were discussing the issue but had not come up with any solutions. When will the discussion with the members of Canada's legal profession and Quebec's notaries finally come to an end?

[Paul Saint-Denis]

I don't think I can say precisely when.

We'll have to figure out what is possible in light of the Supreme Court's decision in the federation's case, and that isn't easy. If you read the decision, you'll know that it leaves very little leeway for requiring information from lawyers or compelling them to provide information on their clients. We have to explore the limited possibilities available to us, in consultation with our charter experts, to determine whether the options we are considering are indeed possible or, conversely, whether we would still face a constitutional challenge, one that we would lose. The goal is to find something that will work, after all.

That said, we do a lot of work with the Department of Finance and FINTRAC. As I said earlier, we hope to work with the various provincial bar associations to figure out whether they can obtain certain information that we, at the federal level, cannot. The bar associations are governed by provincial legislation, but with their co-operation, we may be able to obtain information that could be useful to us later.

As for when that will be done, I would say as early as possible, but I can't give you an exact date.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You're absolutely right. I apologize for asking you to give an exact date. I just wanted to make sure that the discussions were under way and that the time frame for a decision was reasonable.

My second question has to do with this problem.

In terms of hearing arguments in support of keeping the current system as well as the case for changing it, who would be the best-suited legal minds in Canada for the committee to meet with? I'm trying to figure out how we can study the issue. Can you give us any names of individuals the committee could invite at some point?

[Paul Saint-Denis]

Unfortunately, not off the top of my head.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You can take a few days to think about it and, then, get back to the clerk with a few suggestions.

[Paul Saint-Denis]

I can certainly ask around and check with my colleagues at the justice department, as well as those at the Department of Finance. The finance people have been grappling with the issue for some time now, so they've had an opportunity to look at it more closely. I could do a brief survey and send you the names of some experts, if you like.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I would appreciate it, Mr. Saint-Denis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

At a later date, if you've got suggestions for a couple of names, Mr. Saint-Denis, that would be helpful because we're trying to find the parameters of where we can go in this study, as well.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Could we get that, maybe within 10 days, when we come back from the next break?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes. We would want that before we come back after the two-week constituency time.

Mr. McLeod, you can have a last question.

[Paul Saint-Denis]

Mr. Chair, I have one small piece of information. I want to make sure that you're looking for individuals who would be able to testify, in respect of the solicitor-client privilege in the context of the PCMLA. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes.

Go ahead, Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Yes, Mr. Chair. Regarding the PPSC and their presence across the country, with 11 regional offices and I think 900 employees, I just wanted to ask what their track record is like, maybe covering the last five years or so. How many prosecutions for money laundering and terrorist financing resulted in a conviction? How many of these were settled prior to the conclusion of a trial?

[George Dolhai]

With respect to money laundering, I can indicate that where it has been stand-alone money-laundering, proceeds of crime, there have been 46 files during the last five years. Of those 46 files, 25 were stayed or withdrawn by the crown, and 21 were adjudicated. Eighteen 18 were convicted, through a guilty plea or after trial, and five were acquitted. There were no judicial stays. Those are with respect to the stand-alone money-laundering, proceeds of crime cases.

With respect to the offences that include other charges beyond those, the number is 163, and I can provide you with the breakdown if you'd like with respect to findings of guilt, stays, and withdrawals.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for the response.

I'm curious. You have 11 different regional offices. I have to ask you, because I represent the Northwest Territories. I'm not sure you have a presence regarding this issue in the Northwest Territories—maybe you could tell me if you do or not—but what are some of the challenges that are out there, that all 11 offices are facing, that are fairly consistent across the board?

[George Dolhai]

First of all, we do have a presence, of course, in the Northwest Territories. My part of the organization is actually responsible for our offices in the three territories. We do not have and we have not had significant money-laundering proceeds of crime cases there. Part of the reason for that is that even the drug portion is not the primary portion of what is occurring there, although there is definitely an increase happening. There's an increase in terms of both the quantity and the severity of what is occurring, including such things as fentanyl, a scourge that everyone has mentioned a number of times.

With respect to the other offices across the country, the issues are, again, how to get the evidence and, from our perspective, how we advise the police in order to assist them, so that investigatory decisions they're making will help them to get admissible evidence. The challenge, whether with respect to technology, cryptography, or privacy issues with respect to computers and hand-held devices, is getting information and meeting the threshold for production orders, which is the reasonable grounds threshold, like a search warrant. It's getting the evidence from all of those various pieces.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We have to go in camera to deal with a couple of items.

Thank you both for appearing. There may come an opportunity for us to invite you back—I'm not sure—as we go through the process on this particular review on the proceeds of crime.

With that, thank you very much.

[George Dolhai]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Paul Saint-Denis]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will suspend and go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]