Evidence of meeting #150 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was approach.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Why was there no detailed plan in the main estimates that's ready to go to Treasury Board and be executed?
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
The plan was proposed to the Auditor General when he tabled his report. As I mentioned earlier, we are currently working on a telephone system, which should be in place, as I mentioned earlier, in 2018-2019. We’ve hired new employees and training will be provided.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
There was a news story by the CBC earlier this week that reported on the disproportionate number of audits taking place on residents of the north. You mentioned in your opening remarks the difficulties around tax compliance with respect to northern residents. In response to a question about the number of those affected by these audits in the north, you said, “Listen, I can tell you I'll get you those statistics, and I'll commit to giving them to you.” Do you have those statistics today?
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Our government is committed to respecting and renewing our relationship with indigenous peoples, which, in its opinion, is our most important relationship. It is also important that Northerners receive the credits to which they are entitled.
I met with several aboriginal communities in the Northwest Territories. We have adapted our communications products to Northerners and are working in partnership with Service Canada. We also visited 698 aboriginal communities across the country to share information on benefits.
Conservative
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
I asked the agency for more information about what the people of the Northwest Territories had asked my department when I went to meet with them.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Minister.
I’m going to quickly go back to what you said in response to the call centre question, namely, that you were aware of the problem. Can you explain why the numbers in the agency’s output and performance reports were incorrect? You say that you knew, but according to the agency’s reports, everything was fine and wonderful with regard to the call centre numbers.
Can you explain that difference?
Liberal
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
According to the Auditor General, the figures published by the agency show that the call centres are working well. In fact, his report says otherwise. According to him, 50% of calls were blocked and 30% of the information transmitted was incorrect. There was no mention of this in the agency’s performance reports.
Why is there a difference? You knew there was a problem with call centres.
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
As I mentioned, the recommendations in the Auditor General’s report didn’t surprise me. In fact, when I met with the Auditor General, we were already working on an action plan to modernize telephone services, provide staff training and meet the standards that Canadians expect from the agency.
As for the much more technical details, I’ll ask Mr. Vermaeten to answer you.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, but I’m satisfied with your answer. Since my speaking time is limited to five minutes, I’d like to raise another issue.
Can you remind me of the figures you mentioned regarding convictions over the last year?
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
I’m happy to give you that.
In 2016-2017, there were 37 convictions, resulting in more than 50 years of prison time and $10 million in court-imposed fines.
Liberal
NDP
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
It’s related to tax evasion. If you want more technical information about tax evasion and what that means, Mr. Gallivan can tell you more.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
I know what that means, but I’m trying to understand one thing.
When you said that, it seemed to be about offshore tax evasion, because you mentioned fighting offshore tax evasion in your speech. You then referred to 37 convictions, 50 years of prison time and $10 million in fines. However, if we go back to another figure you mentioned many times in the House, there have been 78 convictions with respect to offshore tax evasion.
However, thanks to the work of a good CBC journalist, Elizabeth Thompson, we realized that very few of those 78 cases had anything to do with offshore tax evasion. However, today, you still refer to the 37 cases as tax evasion convictions. And when I ask you the question, you don’t say, “offshore.”
Why do you use so many numbers that mislead Canadians? When I ask you about offshore tax evasion, you answer that there are 78 cases, but virtually none of those cases are related to offshore tax evasion.
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Our government is the one that has invested the most to fight tax evasion and tax avoidance. As I mentioned, it might be interesting for you to have a little more information instead of talking through your hat. So I’m going to ask Mr. Gallivan to explain what tax evasion and tax avoidance really are.
NDP
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Mr. Gallivan will answer your question.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
I would like to know so that I can ask you the right questions.
Liberal
Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
We’ll give you the right information. Take the time to listen to what Mr. Gallivan has to say.
Ted Gallivan Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigations Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
In fact, the confusion sometimes arises because the criminal prosecutions we undertake today won’t result in convictions for four, five or six years. For several years now, in criminal investigations, the agency has been focusing on offshore tax evasion. That’s why we’re currently working on 42 files. However, the cases that have been closed in recent years are those we began working on in 2011-2012, so they haven’t drawn the same attention.
I think this confusion has to do with timing.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
The confusion comes mainly from the minister’s answers.
When we ask questions about offshore tax evasion, we get a figure of 78 as an answer, but in this case, the number is 37. Personally, I think the confusion comes mainly from your side. You answer questions about offshore tax evasion and provide figures that have no...
