I'm still up. I have a few more here.
Evidence of meeting #207 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #207 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
I know that Mr. Oliphant has revealed that his constituents are among the smartest people in the world. I want to assure him that before rendering that judgment he should come to the riding of Carleton and visit with the businesses I represent and that they are also very shrewd in how they conduct their affairs.
The problem for them is that it's all stick and no carrot here. Mr. Oliphant is saying, look, if you reduce your emissions, we will hit you a little less hard with this big stick of ours called the carbon tax. Then he asks people to be grateful for that.
What I was asking is, where's the carrot for the small business person? Again, I gave the example of two small businesses from my constituency that lay foundations for medium-sized commercial buildings and also for residential homes. These are the foundations we all take for granted in the buildings that we live in and work in.
They are going to pay more. The government tells them, “Don't worry, there's this fund you're paying into and part of the carbon tax will flow into this fund.” It's defined through a very sophisticated algebraic formula. Trust us, it says, you're going to get something back here—maybe. It says, “We can't tell you what, but one day we will tell you, and maybe you can staple your fuel and other costs onto a letter, send that letter to the minister and he'll send you back some money.”
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We have a point of order here. I think we're getting into debate that can happen in the House of Commons but that officials can't deal with.
What's your point of order, Mr. Sorbara?
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Chair, as much as I respect and appreciate folks that build homes—I have many in my community—I do want to go back to the topic at hand, which is the BIA legislation and what is in the legislation.
Thank you, Chair.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Everything I'm talking about is in the legislation. That's the subject.
They're the parts of the legislation that you don't want to talk about, Mr. Sorbara, but this is in the legislation.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I think it's the principle of the legislation that we're debating at the moment. If we can get into the details the officials can answer, maybe that's where we ought to be. I think we are having a great exchange. This is a wonderful exchange, but we really need to get into Bill C-97—
1:10 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
1:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Implementation, Department of the Environment
I suspect that both your ridings have innovative businesses and committed business owners. The thing that I think we can comment on is the fact that 100% of the revenues collected will be returned to the jurisdictions of origin.
I don't think we can say that all businesses will be equally affected, as MP Poilievre mentioned, and will all be able to innovate in the same way. That wouldn't be the expectation of price signals and then returns. The funding that isn't returned through the climate action incentive payment structure would be subject to the programming to which we're alluding, but I don't think we're going to make an announcement on it here today in front of this committee, with the three officials present.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Okay. Can we move on to “Payment in Relation to Infrastructure”?
Who is heading off on that? Mr. Makuc.
1:10 p.m.
Bogdan Makuc Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm here to speak about clause 130 of the bill, which proposes to provide up to $2.2 billion for the purposes of municipal, regional and first nations infrastructure. This funding will be delivered primarily through an existing program called the federal gas tax fund. The gas tax fund is a permanent, legislated and indexed funding program. It has been around since 2005. It currently provides approximately $2.2 billion—last year—to 3,600 municipalities and communities across the country for the purpose of investments in their local infrastructure.
Through the program, funding is provided up front to provinces and territories that are signatories, and they then flow funds to the municipalities. Projects are chosen locally. Municipalities are allowed to choose among a wide variety of investment categories to address their needs as determined by local governments.
Generally in the past few years, the funding supports approximately 4,000 projects per year. As I said, it's very flexible, not only in terms of the categories but in terms of how the municipalities can spend the funds. They do not necessarily need to spend it in any given year. They can bank it to pool it for a larger amount to spend for a larger project if they wish. They can work with other municipalities to work on a regional project. It's a program that's very well appreciated and very well supported by all of our stakeholders.
I will conclude with that.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We have Mr. McLeod first, and then Mr. Sorbara.
Go ahead, Mr. McLeod.
May 2nd, 2019 / 1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just have a couple of questions so I'm clear on how this works. On the gas tax fund, has it been historically delivered by, it says here, “the Minister of State (Indigenous Services)”? Which department usually handled this?
1:15 p.m.
Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
There are two departments that historically delivered. The way the funds are set out, of the $2.2 billion, it's primarily on a population basis, and there's a portion representing indigenous people on reserve that goes to Indigenous Services Canada, and they manage that portion. I'm not privy to the details of how that bit is managed. I'm from Infrastructure Canada. We manage the majority of the funding that gets delivered to provinces and territories and then flows to municipalities.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
Okay, you've gone to where I really wanted to go, and that is first nations funding, because Indian Affairs doesn't have a mandate for first nations people in the Northwest Territories. They fall under northern affairs, so the $18 billion or so that's under Indigenous Services does not come to the north.
When you say that first nations will also get the gas tax, how is that going to work in the Northwest Territories? Our indigenous people do not fall under the NIOs, national indigenous organizations. The land claims coalition doesn't get the gas tax. Is it then going to go to the Government of the Northwest Territories, who is now going to start acting as the new Indian Affairs for us? What's the delivery mechanism for the Northwest Territories' first nations?
1:15 p.m.
Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Since the beginning of the program, the territories have been responsible for managing all of the funding for all of their communities, both indigenous and non-indigenous, in their area.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
I've never heard of.... I'm not sure. Can you tell me if there are indigenous people who get the gas tax in the Northwest Territories?
1:15 p.m.
Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
There are communities that get the funding.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
That's not what I asked you. Communities and municipalities are not indigenous first nations councils.
1:15 p.m.
Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
With respect to the way in which the territory manages that part of it, we have an agreement with the territory. There's a formula that's outlined in the agreement. I'm not knowledgeable about each of the jurisdictions.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
That's my concern. Instead of delivering the money to the indigenous governments, we're giving it to provinces and territories to manage, which is almost like creating an Indian Affairs department, just smaller in each region.
1:15 p.m.
Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
I understand that. It's the way the program was designed and approved in 2005, and it has continued—
