Finance Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thanks.

Go ahead, Ms. Lane.

[Janet Lane]

Thank you.

There are so many places. Where do I start?

When we are going around looking for labour market information, we are asking employers about what are they going to need. Normally, the qualifications people request are credentials. They label people by the job description.

We need to help employers to break that down into the competencies they need for that job. Sometimes they would say you need an engineer, but they don't need an engineer; they need a technician or a technologist, for one example.

When we're talking about lower-skilled workers, they say they need high school graduation. Sometimes they don't actually need high school graduation for that particular job—which is not to say I don't want to support people to graduate from high school—but let's find out exactly what it is employers are looking for. I think we don't do a good enough job of that.

Then we give them canned curriculum in our programs: “Oh, you need that; then we have just the curriculum for you” That's instead of customizing the curriculum for the employer for what they need in the moment.

I'm all for learning more than what's just needed at the moment, but in order to solve the problem in the short term, let's find out what it is that the employer really needs, rather than talking about certificates. Then let's find out what the gaps are between what they have, what they are able to hire, and what they really need. Then you can fill the gap, rather than enrolling people in a four-year program that they're going to have to go through after they do the pre-training and all of that.

Sometimes it's not necessary, certainly not for our aboriginal people and our new immigrants, since they already have some level of competencies. Let's assess those and then let's fill the gap, rather than putting them through particular programs we already have in place. I think we need to help employers to understand what it is that they are really looking for.

This proxy of using credentials is not serving us. For instance, this company I've been working with has journeyman ironworkers, but when they bring people from different parts of the country or from outside of the country, because they have a journeyman certificate, they are supposed to be able to work up at 300 feet. They might not have ever worked at height. They may not have ever worked in the cold. They may not ever have done that particular weld.

Let's find out exactly what it is that employers are looking for and assess people for what they have, and then fill that gap.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Mr. Groening.

[Ralph Groening]

I know you didn't direct the question at me, but I do have a contribution.

One of the issues that I think would help us as municipalities is that the Canada-Manitoba job grant program has excluded municipalities. A resolution that was supported by 95% of our members at our last convention asked for the government to reconsider the exclusion of municipalities from that program. I want to emphasize that there may be some opportunity there to add value to the way in which municipalities contribute to the job market.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're going to be well over Steve's time, but it's a question that needs an answer.

Go ahead, Mr. Hicks or Mr. Davidson.

[James Hicks]

I guess I would start by saying that I think there's a major problem in the way in which we approach programs for employment. I agree competencies are more important than actual degrees and those sorts of things, but I also think that in a typical employment program for people with disabilities, a group of folks who know about disability try and teach people about employment. It's not an industry-specific sort of training.

I think there needs to be more connection between the industries themselves, maybe even looking at having programs that are based in a specific industry, so that they are working with the industry to make sure those folks have the skills that industry needs in order to go into that industry.

It means coming at it from a different perspective, meaning partnerships. We could look at an industry-community partnership in order to create a program that can then ensure people are going into the workforce.

[Chuck Davidson]

My comments will be consistent with what Ms. Lane has talked about.

The biggest issue I continually see in regard to the labour market is the need for better labour market information. You could then determine where the gaps are, what business is looking for, how post-secondary institutions are going to be able to respond to those needs of the business community, and where government can provide programming that's going to be flexible but also consistent with what the business community is looking for.

On numerous occasions I've heard from businesses that are unable to find specific skill sets, where either post-secondary institutions are not training in those areas or there are no programs to provide training. Sometimes it takes organizations like ours and others to be a bit of a lever to give a better understanding of what some of the challenges are.

I would suggest better labour market information has to be a top priority.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're well over in that round.

Mr. Liepert is next.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you. I have three questions. I'll try to keep the questions brief, and if you could try to be succinct in your answers, I would be most appreciative.

Mr. Davidson, as a Conservative member of Parliament, I'm sure it's no surprise that our belief is that the private sector and not government creates jobs and drives economic growth. As an Alberta MP, though, I consistently hear from the business community about the piling-on effect.

I'll give you an example from Alberta. Each of these in its own right may be good or may not be good, but you have a carbon tax, an increase in the minimum wage, and municipal governments putting a head tax on each head at feedlots.

At the end of the day there's just one taxpayer, so I would like to get your sense of whether or not it's time for governments generally to really start to address this piling-on effect.

[Chuck Davidson]

Absolutely. I'm very well versed with my counterpart in the Alberta Chambers of Commerce. He raises this point on a consistent basis with me.

Obviously this is an issue that we deal with here in Manitoba as well when we are looking at what we are doing that is making us less competitive. The whole focus needs to be on creating a more competitive business climate, and the role of government, to my mind, is always to create the climate. It's business's job to create the jobs.

When you're adding taxes, adding regulations, and making it more challenging for business by adding to their costs, that makes it more difficult for them to increase that prosperity, to increase jobs, and to create greater wealth within their employment.

Absolutely, we need to take steps to lessen the burden on business to allow them to be more competitive. I think that will have the greatest impact in terms of creating greater prosperity in Canada.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

The energy downturn in Alberta and Saskatchewan that I'm familiar with—and it's probably the same in Newfoundland and Labrador—certainly hit our provinces hard. Manitoba has a little production, but not a ton in that sense. Manitoba, especially Winnipeg, is heavily a manufacturing centre.

Give me a sense of whether you're noticing that impact on the manufacturing centres and your business community, even though it's not a direct hit to Manitoba.

[Chuck Davidson]

I can give you some real examples. I had the ability to tour some businesses in Winkler, some manufacturing companies that had moved their manufacturing focus from an agriculture-based perspective to one that was more based on providing to the oil industry. They've seen significant decreases in terms of their capacity. Obviously, there's hope that there's going to be a rebound.

These companies are currently dealing with the question of what to do with their employees. They've had some challenges with some specific programs in order to continue to keep their employees without having to lay them off and let go of them in the meantime. A number of companies throughout Manitoba are being impacted, and they are trying to basically hold the line and continue to have the employees they have until there's a rebound.

There's no question that impacts are being felt in Manitoba as a result of that.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Hicks, I found some of your recommendations very sensible. I'll put it that way. For the one that you specifically mentioned, I couldn't find a cost in your brochure, but I can't imagine that changing it from a tax credit to a tax refund—I think those were the terms, or close to it—would involve a significant cost.

I want to explore something else. The second point that Mr. Davidson made was about labour availability. I've always felt that an untapped market in our country was folks with disabilities. What can we do better to connect the need at the business level to the availability in the disability community? Is there something that maybe the federal government could do, for example, relative to a small business tax credit, for someone who qualifies as disabled?

[James Hicks]

I'm sure there probably is. There's a possibility of giving tax credits to the businesses, particularly for some of the things I talked about and the need for accommodation and those sorts of things.

I'll use screen readers as an example again. If somebody is visually impaired and needs a screen reader, the technology advances so quickly that the screen readers they have no longer work, so they need new ones. Is that the person's responsibility or the employer's responsibility? Most people would say that if they're an employee and they need a particular type of thing to do the work, it's really the employer's responsibility, but that causes difficulties for the employers.

I think if there were a way to sort of combine those two things, looking particularly within the small business sector, because I think that it's an untapped market for people with disabilities—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Yes, and I think that's what I'm getting at.

If I'm a small business person, I'm going to have to look at those potential costs that I have to incur if I hire this person. If there's that kind of allowance in the tax system, it seems that we just need to do a better job of finding out what some of those small—and frankly, I think they're pretty darned small—costs may be that are associated with them, and saying this could be an appropriate way to go.

I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have time, Ron, if you want to further that question.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I have time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Does anybody have another answer to that?

Go ahead, Mr. Davidson.

[Chuck Davidson]

I'd be happy to address that.

One thing is on even greater awareness. That's one thing that organizations like ours are trying to do, to understand what the workforce challenges are right now in terms of that shortage of workers. We're really encouraging businesses to look at different pools of workers, whether they be new immigrants, aboriginal people, or people with disabilities.

Some things you find when you do some research on persons with disabilities and hiring them is that there's sometimes greater productivity within your company. Sometimes it's giving them a better understanding of what specific jobs you're looking to fill, what the needs are, and the skills sets you're bringing in. Numerous people we've talked to are very high on hiring people with disabilities, and for that reason.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Mr. Chair, let me just push it over to the municipal organization.

Do you see something that could be incorporated in the federal tax system as it relates to municipal governments that could also address this particular issue?

[Ralph Groening]

I was going to offer a comment on the suggestion of the impact for us in Manitoba regarding the downturn in the price of oil. Certainly our municipalities and our member communities are impacted at the end of the day. There's one taxpayer, so when there's a loss of jobs or businesses have to leave, our communities struggle to meet the demands that are placed on them.

In terms of tax structure, I'm not certain that I could add anything further to the discussion, other than to acknowledge and to emphasize what Mr. Davidson said. There is and has been an impact in Manitoba that probably hasn't quite yet been recognized. We want to emphasize that point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're done.

Ms. Ashton, you have seven minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all of you for the great presentations today.

Before I go into my questions, I want to acknowledge, Ms. Rosales, that any of us as Manitoba members of Parliament would know a number of the topics you touched on in terms of the casework we face. Thank you for your very concrete recommendations.

I also want to thank you, Mr. Hicks, for your presentation. I'm familiar with the document and the good work that you do.

Mr. Hagerman, there is such a robust network of activists and advocates here in Manitoba when it comes to the need for Canada to play a greater role in foreign aid. Thank you for being a voice on that front and for your recommendations.

Obviously I'm cognizant of the fact that we are here to talk about the realities in our province. As many of us know, but perhaps not everybody in our province knows, we as Manitobans do better when all of Manitoba is better. As you know, it's been a very difficult summer for the part of the province that I represent, northern Manitoba. There has been a series of very difficult announcements, but one that involves the federal government in a very major way is the announcement regarding the Port of Churchill. I know a couple of you here today, both the AMM and, of course, the chamber of commerce, have spoken out on this issue.

We're here to talk about what the federal government can be doing for our communities and for our province, so I'd love to ask you, Mr. Groening, as well as you, Mr. Davidson, to perhaps share your perspectives of how important you feel it is for the federal government to come to the table in a long-term sense. Obviously we saw a recent announcement for the short term, which is important, but we need the recognition that there needs to be long-term support for the Port of Churchill. It's a jewel for us in Manitoba, but it's a community that's hurting right now, and a sector that deserves federal help.

We could perhaps start with AMM.

I do want to read into the record that Mayor Mike Spence has been quite vocal about the need for the federal government to nationalize the port and move it to a port authority. I'm wondering, Mr. Groening, if you could share some of AMM's thoughts on this front first.

[Ralph Groening]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

Yes, we were involved almost from the very moment the announcements were made affecting our northern communities, Churchill and all the communities along the rail line that in some form or another depend on that line to be there to provide the communities with the commodities and services they need. We met with the mayor of The Pas. We were up in Thompson. We emphasized the support, the importance of the northern communities, and the importance of that rail line in whatever final decision is made. I know there's been some initial offer of support for Churchill. We appreciate that and we acknowledge that.

We also met with the provincial government to emphasize that we want to work with them to ensure that for the northern communities that are already struggling—they truly are struggling—we can work collaboratively to improve the circumstances they're currently facing.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Great. Thank you, Mr. Groening.

I know, Mr. Davidson, that obviously the chamber has been up to Churchill. You made some very clear statements with regard to the need for federal action on this front. I wonder if you could speak to that.