Evidence of meeting #48 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was impact.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen S. Poloz  Governor, Bank of Canada
Carolyn Wilkins  Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada
Jean-Denis Fréchette  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Mostafa Askari  Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Chris Matier  Senior Director, Economic and Fiscal Analysis and Forecasting, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Jason Jacques  Director, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Tim Scholz  Economic Advisor, Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Trevor Shaw  Financial Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'll call the meeting to order.

I have a quick question before we start. On Wednesday, we have votes at six o'clock. We're in the Wellington Building, and we have 16 witnesses, which normally takes three hours. We really don't want to leave them sitting idle while we come up and do five or six votes.

Are we willing to tighten the panels up to about an hour and seven minutes per panel, which would mean we could get out of there at 5:45 p.m.? We could go to five questions, two from the Liberals, two from the Conservatives, one from the NDP, which would be about five minutes for questions.

Are people okay with that, so that we can give them notice now? Part of the problem is the second panel comprises two separate video conferences, so we need to line this up.

Are we okay with that? Agreed. The clerk will inform the witnesses. Thank you all.

Turning to the business at hand, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the report of the Bank of Canada on monetary policy. We are most fortunate to have Bank of Canada Governor Stephen S. Poloz, and Carolyn Wilkins, senior deputy governor.

I believe you have a presentation to start. Welcome.

3:30 p.m.

Stephen S. Poloz Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you and good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and committee members. Senior deputy governor Wilkins and I are happy to be here before you today.

It is our normal practice to appear before this committee twice a year to discuss the bank's monetary policy report. We published our latest MPR last week, and we're happy to answer questions about it and other economic topics.

However, I suspect you may also want to ask about the agreement with the federal government that was announced this morning, which renews our inflation control framework for another five years. Before we respond to questions, allow me to say just a few words on both topics, beginning with the MPR.

Since our last appearance, there have been two significant developments that led us to downgrade our outlook for the Canadian economy. The first is a lower trajectory for exports. After a sharp decline in goods exports over a period of five months earlier this year, we had a significant rebound in July and August. That was not enough to make up for the ground that had been lost.

We worked hard to determine the reasons for this shortfall. About half of it can be explained by weak global trade and composition changes in the U.S. economy; however, the rest is unclear.

In our outlook, we now assume that longer-term structural issues, such as lost export capacity and competitiveness challenges, are responsible for the remainder. This assumption led us to reduce the projected level of GDP by the end of 2018 by about 0.6%, compared with our July projection.

The second major factor behind our downgraded growth outlook is the federal government's macro-prudential measures to promote housing market stability. These measures are welcome because they will, over time, ease vulnerabilities related to housing and household imbalances. That is important because such vulnerabilities can magnify the impact of negative economic shocks.

We expect the government's measures will restrain residential investment by curbing resale activity in the near term, and lead to a modest change in the composition of construction toward smaller units. We estimate this will leave the level of GDP 0.3% lower at the end of 2018 than projected in July.

Given these two sets of developments, we cut our growth estimate for 2016 to 1.1%. The expansion in both 2017 and 2018 should be around 2.0%, which is above the growth rate of potential, which I will remind you is around 1.5%.

However, because the output gap is now larger, and will close later than we projected in July, the profile for inflation is now slightly lower. We project that total CPI inflation will remain below 2% through the end of the year, and be close to the 2% target in 2017 and 2018.

The outlook is clouded by a number of uncertainties at this time. These include: first, the macroeconomic effects of the new mortgage rules; second, the likely path of our exports; third, the impacts of the federal government's fiscal measures; and fourth, the effects of the U.S. election on business confidence.

Given the two-sided nature of these uncertainties, and with the flexibility inherent in our inflation-targeting framework, we judged that the current setting for monetary policy remains appropriate.

Let me now speak about the renewal of the inflation-targeting framework.

Today, the bank and the government announced that we will continue to target inflation at the 2% midpoint of a 1% to 3% range for another five years. This is good news, as our framework has served Canadians well, in both calm and turbulent times, for 25 years. The framework's track record is impressive.

Annual inflation has averaged almost exactly 2% since 1991. Inflation has also been more stable, which has meant that unemployment and interest rates have become lower and more stable. In turn, this has helped households and firms make spending and investment decisions with more confidence, encouraged investment, contributed to sustained growth in output and productivity, and improved Canada's standard of living.

As is the case at every renewal, a great deal of research and analysis went into the process, and we took on board the experiences and lessons of the past five years. Bank staff published dozens of research papers and worked with researchers from other central banks and academic institutions, as well as private-sector economists.

And, as usual, we asked some fundamental questions to make sure inflation targeting is still delivering its economic benefits effectively. We examined potential alternatives to inflation targeting to see if they provide even more benefits. That is one of the great advantages of our five-year renewal cycle—the framework is not set in stone; we are always looking for ways to improve it.

Now it's fair to say that even after years of very low interest rates, the recovery from the great recession in many economies remains weak, so it's not really surprising that some are wondering if monetary policy has lost its power.

Low interest rates are actually doing a great deal to support the economy. To illustrate this point, if we were to raise interest rates to pre-crisis levels, say 3% or 4%, there would be a significant contraction in the economy, and it's these contractionary forces that we are offsetting with low interest rates today. While monetary policy is still powerful, it is true that at the current setting the impact of any interest-rate reduction is less than it would be if rates were at historically normal levels. That's the case in a number of economies.

In this environment, it's particularly important that all policies—monetary, fiscal, and macro-prudential—work in a complementary way. This is why our agreement with the government is crucial. The government is making it clear that it also supports low, stable, and predictable inflation, while leaving us the independence to pursue that goal as we see fit. It's a framework that has worked extraordinarily well for 25 years, and after looking at all the evidence, we could find no compelling reason to change it.

With that, Mr. Chairman, Ms. Wilkins and I would be happy to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Poloz.

We will start the seven-minute rounds with Mr. MacKinnon.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome Ms. Wilkins and Mr. Poloz. We would like to thank and congratulate you. I don't want to speak for my colleagues, but I think there's a broad consensus on inflation targeting. Congratulations on the new agreement with the Government Canada.

This afternoon, I'd like to discuss what you said at the end of your presentation. If I understood correctly, you indicated that, at this point in time, new monetary policy measures would have little or marginal impact in Canada or around the world. You talked about the need for fiscal policy to take over, in terms of moving the economy forward. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'll let you explain.

In light of your observations, how can Canada, but other countries as well, more effectively structure their monetary and fiscal policies to speed up growth in western countries?

3:40 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

Thank you for your question.

You are right that a global consensus is emerging, but the post-crisis focus on monetary policy was probably excessive. Immediately afterward, monetary and fiscal policies were implemented simultaneously around the world. After about two years, we saw a fairly strong recovery, and it was assumed that the bulk of the work had been done. Today, it is clear that it was too early to claim victory and that the world is still experiencing significant distress. Consequently, fiscal policy became more balanced, and monetary policy had to become more accommodative during the second phase.

Today, a consensus exists, but not everywhere, not in every country. It's not universally accepted, but we are in a situation where incremental changes in monetary policy will have less of an impact. We are almost in the same situation as during the Great Depression of the 1930s. That is when Keynesian economics comes into play, meaning that, in such situations, the use of fiscal policy is more appropriate.

As for us, I would simply say that, with the mix of the two policies, which are both important, we anticipate an interest rate of 0.5%, rather than a lower rate, because the fiscal policy is more accommodative.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

If the United States were to raise its rates in the near future, what do you think the impact on Canada's economy would be? I realize you aren't going to want to comment on what the United States might do, but it is something we are hearing about.

In the event that were to happen, what impact would it have on the Canadian economy? How sensitive is Canada's economy to interest rates in the U.S.?

3:40 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

I want to start by pointing out that our monetary policy is independent of the United States and that we are in a situation where the economic forces are more or less opposite. Two years ago, the two economies were in a similar situation, but the oil price shock lowered the growth rate in Canada while having a significantly positive impact on the U.S. economy. During that time, as adjustments are made to reflect the lower price of oil, Canada's economy is experiencing a second period of distress. So all the ingredients are there to create a divergence between the two countries for a few years, three or perhaps more.

Within the economic models, a divergence in monetary policy is also expected. It is true, then, that, potentially, if a normalization of interest rates were triggered in the U.S., it would affect our bond market. It's a global market, and Canada would feel an impact, but an analysis of the impact would be necessary at the time. It's tough to predict exactly what the consequences would be, and I'm certainly not going to comment on American monetary policy. It is true that such an event would affect us, but it's important to stress that our policy would remain independent.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

I know my colleagues will want to talk to you about productivity. Economic competitiveness is a key element in your report. You point to weaknesses, gaps, indeed an output gap. Can you tell us what you think the government could do to rectify the situation? What steps could be taken, and how could monetary policy play a role as well?

3:45 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

It is true that we currently have excess economic capacity; that's clear in terms of output and the labour market. The signs are visible.

The extent of the gap is putting downward pressure on the inflation rate. We are trying to eliminate the gap, a process that should take two years, bringing us to May 2018.

Obviously, the interest rates favour growth, as do the other policies, and specifically, fiscal policy. Those are the areas we are working on to close the gap in a period of about 18 months.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you both.

Mr. Deltell.

October 24th, 2016 / 3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Wilkins, Governor, it's an honour to meet with you today and to have the opportunity to speak with you.

Governor Poloz, I'd like to commend you on your French skills.

3:45 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Like all Canadians, I've had a chance to hear you speak on a number of occasions. Since you had such a lovely conversation in French with my colleague, I'm going to continue speaking in Molière's language.

Is that okay with you?

3:45 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

It's fine. Thank you.

You'll have to excuse my Oshawa accent.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I hadn't noticed.

Governor, can you explain to us why Canada's economic growth rate is lower than you had predicted some time ago?

3:45 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

Do you mean lower right now or overall?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I am asking about both.

3:45 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

At this time, our downgraded outlook is due to two main factors. Firstly, we have observed a sharp rebound in exports since the decline. However, during this recovery period, exports did not increase as much as our models had predicted. It is a gradual process and the margin of error keeps widening. We have been monitoring this situation closely for two years, so it is not new to us.

Over the past year, we did other research, and for different reasons, downgraded our forecast for exports. On the one hand, it is clear that global trade is weak. All countries are experiencing a decline in exports relative to GDP. On the other hand, the American economy was very weak during this year's first trimester, which led to composition changes in U.S. demand. To give you an example, new houses are smaller than usual. This is probably a demographic trend, but it has reduced Canadian exports of goods such as construction materials. Investment is also a very important category for our exports. All of these factors have caused the current decline in our exports.

In addition, the government's recent announcements regarding mortgages led to a slight drop in housing sales. There is a lot of uncertainty around that forecast, and we will have to follow the situation closely to see the results.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

So, I understand that some factors are due to developments elsewhere, but there are also local factors such as the new mortgage rules announced three weeks ago by the Minister of Finance.

Concerning investments and exports by our SMEs, what will be the impact of measures such as the increase in contributions to the Canada Pension Plan, the introduction of a carbon tax, and the decision to maintain the tax rate on small business at 11%? All of these measures will have a direct impact on our small, medium, and even large enterprises.

In your opinion, will these three new measures -- the increase in contributions to the Canada Pension Plan for employers and employees, the imposition of a carbon tax, and maintaining the small business tax rate at 11% -- stimulate the economy, or on the contrary, have an adverse effect on our entrepreneurs?

3:50 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

That is quite a complex question. It is true that a lot of things could encourage competition and make our businesses more competitive. You expressed some hypotheses on that topic, but I do not have any figures to give you on each of them.

Last week we discussed important factors that can affect competitiveness. It is important that every change has a positive effect, but we will have to study each element carefully using our models. The Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, for instance, has specific models to analyze these factors.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Governor, generally speaking, is it a good thing to maintain the small business tax rate at 11% rather than 9%? Is is good for an enterprise that taxes be higher?

3:50 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

I have no comment to make on that. Our taxation rate is already low when looked at in the international context. I think we are competitive in that area.

Businesses share other concerns with us during our visits. They mention deficient infrastructure, and the cost of electricity, which in Toronto is practically twice what it is in Detroit or Chicago. As far as I know, they did not raise the tax you mention.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

The new pension plan will mean that each business will have to pay $1,000 more per employee.

Do you think this additional burden will stimulate the economy, and business growth?

3:55 p.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

Once again, there are two sides to that coin.

It is true that anything that increases an enterprise's expenses has an effect on its competitiveness. However, the confidence of households plays a role in economic demand. If the changes made to the pension plan mean that there is greater long-term confidence in the economy, this will stimulate growth.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

For economic growth ...