Finance Committee on April 10th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I certainly appreciate the work that our officials do for our country.

The minister came in earlier and talked about the funding for innovation and skills within the budget. Obviously, there may be some new initiatives that are not going to be in the estimates just because of the timing and whatnot.

Is that correct?

Okay.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy put out a report about a month ago in regard to the money that goes out the door, about $23 billion for innovation and skills. Does that come under this pocket of money under the main estimates, or is that through a different budget?

[Christopher Meyers]

In general terms, what you see in the Department of Finance's estimates are the main federal-provincial transfer payments and the interest expenses on mature debt. Those are the high-profile items that you see in our estimates. Any expenditures with respect to the areas that you're speaking of would likely appear in other departments, departments that are charged with implementing those programs.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Even EI funds for retraining and whatnot would come under a different pocket of money?

[Christopher Meyers]

That would, yes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Obviously, the largest increases here, as shown on the back end of the estimates, have to do with the health transfer, social transfer, and whatnot. Again, the Canada health transfer is based on long-standing agreements that were renegotiated, I believe. The new bilaterals, or the new approach by this government, are not accounted for in the main estimates at this time?

[Glenn Purves, General Director, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

That's correct. The Canada health transfer, as you say, is formulaic, as is the Canada social transfer. Based on the.... I think you're referring to the health agreements that have been made with the provinces....

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Yes.

[Glenn Purves]

Those amounts are not reflected in the main estimates.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay, do we have an idea of when we will expect those to come in with supplementaries (A) or (B)?

[Christopher Meyers]

I think it would be a function first of when the necessary legislation and authorities come into place. Typically, any adjustments after those authorities are in place would be supplementary estimates (B), or possibly (C).

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

So we probably won't see some of these new health accords and the transfers associated with them until much further into the fiscal year?

[Christopher Meyers]

That's correct.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I think that's it for my questions, Mr. Chair.

I just have one quick one on FINTRAC. How much time and energy does the Department of Finance spend supervising FINTRAC and watching how it works? Who's the representative for FINTRAC on these estimates?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Cousineau, go ahead. Did you hear the question?

Ask it again, Dan.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

No, I just asked to see if we had someone here for it.

We've conducted a housing study. I'm not sure if you're aware of it. There were many different groups here, including the Minister of Finance, I believe. Was the Bank of Canada here? I believe CMHC was as well. When we talked about cash payments for purchases of homes and whatnot, and the sharing of data, there seemed to be absolutely no one in the room who had any understanding of what FINTRAC does in that regard.

Now, is that information-sharing part of FINTRAC's mandate? Currently, do the estimates you have here help to supply that data sharing? There do seem to be some gaps in inter-agency sharing of information when it comes to our housing markets.

[Stéphane Cousineau, Deputy Director, Corporate Management Services Sector and Chief Financial Officer, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to clarify your question. Are you asking about the collaboration we have with Finance in terms of the information sharing—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Yes, because all the other agencies seemed to have no understanding of what information FINTRAC collects, for example, through a real estate agent on cash sales, etc.

[Stéphane Cousineau]

Obviously, under our act there are specifics around the kind of information that we can actually obtain from the different reporting entities. We deal with 31,000 entities, and transactions, as you know, that are beyond $10,000 in value. We get millions of transactions like this year over year. We also get information from those entities when it comes to suspicious transactions, and things like that. We do have collaboration with—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I totally understand the suspicious issues, and I'm happy to see that those are being looked at. What I'm talking about is that there's a lot of data, and in much of the policy decision-making that is done in the area of housing, none of it seems to mention FINTRAC's role in collecting some of that data. Are there restrictions on that data that do not allow you to pass it on to groups like CMHC so they can have a better snapshot of some of our housing markets?

[Stéphane Cousineau]

We have specificity around whom we can disclose to, and we don't disclose to the CMHC, only to the regime partners who are identified in our act. The RCMP is an example. CSIS is another example. If you want further details, I'd be pleased to get back with further information on that.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Sure, I would appreciate that. There are also some concerns about the implementation of credit unions and whatnot, but maybe we'll save that for another day.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have to suspend. We will come back to vote on the main estimates of the Department of Finance and to deal with some committee business.

I thank the officials. We might possibly call, and reserve the right to call, somebody if a specific question comes up, but as far as this hearing is concerned, you're released for today. Thank you very much.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're back to order.

Ron, on your question on grain tickets on page 210 in the budget document, this is what it says:

The income tax rules provide a deferral in respect of deferred cash purchase tickets issued for deliveries of certain listed grains. Given changes in the grain marketing regime in Canada, the Government is conducting a public consultation regarding the ongoing utility of this income tax deferral.

So there are consultations, and I'll just give you my review quite bluntly. It's a current practice that allows farmers to defer income based on a marketing situation that may cost them to receive two or three years sales of crop in one given year due to marketing conditions that they have no control over, and regardless of whether the regime for marketing has changed or not, that issue still exists.

You know where I stand on the issue. They can do their consultations, but I'm strongly opposed to changing that policy.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I appreciate that. The information that I saw was that it had been changed versus consultation, so I'm pleased with that.

Thank you.