Finance Committee on April 24th, 2020

[Pierre Céré]

Okay. How do you see that? The pension fund issue is not my expertise. My little area is employment insurance, which is the income replacement for workers who have lost their jobs.

I imagine that you yourself have thought about possible solutions to protect pension funds. What do you have in mind?

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Yes, absolutely.

In bankruptcy proceedings, creditors go to the front of the line and pension funds come last. When the assets are liquidated, workers who have contributed all their lives to a pension fund may well see their nest eggs fade into thin air. So we are concerned about the possibility of bankruptcies.

[Pierre Céré]

It is a great concern, yes. If there is a danger of it, those people must be protected. Income is central to people's lives. Health is also important, of course, but income allows people to provide for their families and to pay for their groceries, rent or mortgage, and their medication. One day, they will have to fall back on their pension income, and, if it is affected because of an economic situation like the one we are in right now, safeguards will have to be put in place.

If you ask me what those measures might be, I would say that some sort of think tank must be set up. Sometimes, we also must think fast and act just as fast. To intervene quickly does not mean that we dispense with the process of due consideration. You have to think first and then come up with solutions quickly.

This is a very important issue. People have to address it and come up with solutions fairly quickly, especially if pension funds are likely to be affected, as you have pointed out.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I would also like to remind you that the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Stephen Poloz, has appeared before the committee. He was concerned about the limits of employment insurance, which does not provide adequate coverage for workers who lose their jobs. He said that the Bank of Canada's ability to act, for example, by setting low interest rates, was limited. The economy would actually be stabilized through government programs. He pointed out that employment insurance covered too few people who lose their jobs.

I therefore liked your suggestion that, once the crisis is over, we focus on the employment insurance program and the measures to be taken to provide better coverage. I would like to hear your comments on that.

[Pierre Céré]

We absolutely have to do that. It is the main social program for income replacement in the event of unemployment. As for the current crisis, this program essentially collapsed in the first week. It was not ready to face such a crisis, and that is not right. Let me quote the President of the Treasury Board, who, on April 11, gave an in-depth interview to the Quebec City daily Le Soleil.

In terms of the employment insurance system, Le Soleil said that “the employment insurance net had too many holes, did not cover enough, and it has not been reformed quickly enough.” Created at the end of World War II, the program “was not adequate” for the current crisis, according to him. He added that “we can and must do even better.”

The employment insurance system should have been able to respond to the crisis we have been experiencing starting in mid-March, even if it was sudden, but it was unable to do so because it is complicated, cumbersome and bureaucratic. One in five workers is denied employment insurance when they lose their jobs, and it was becoming terribly complicated to open up the system to sections of the labour force that are excluded. I am thinking, for example, of self-employed workers. They represent 15% of the labour force and they are excluded from employment insurance.

The government had to react by putting in place an emergency program and it managed to plug the holes. Good for them. After this crisis, which may just be a dress rehearsal for a future crisis, this program needs to be rethought and modernized with all political and civil society stakeholders.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you all.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll turn to Mr. Julian, and he'll be followed by Mr. Poilievre and then Ms. Dzerowicz.

Go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today and for the valuable work you do.

I have some short questions, and I'll start with Mr. Milligan.

Are you aware, Mr. Milligan, that the emergency response benefit, as the minister has admitted, goes to everybody who applies right now? It's already universal. The problem, of course, is what happens at the back end when those people in need are punished.

Were you aware that it's a universal benefit?

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

I'm certainly aware that there is an attestation box, and after you click it, you get the benefit.

I certainly trust all Canadians to read carefully to what they are attesting. I hope all Canadians will take that seriously.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

We have a universal benefit. The problem is that many people are missing and don't fit into the cubbyholes the government has put in place. They will be penalized and forced to pay back the benefit when they are hugely in debt and in difficulty. Many other countries have already put in place a universal benefit, such as France and the United States, so the idea that a universal benefit is something that is beyond our scope is simply wrong. I thought it was important to mention that.

Mr. Céré, since so many people do not have jobs and cannot access the Canada emergency response benefit because of all the conditions and barriers in place, would it not be better to have a universal Canada emergency response benefit? That way, someone who was already unemployed before the crisis could access this benefit without having to pay it back this summer.

[Pierre Céré]

What is clear to us is that we need to rethink the whole social security system. Today, we call it employment insurance, but, for over 50 years, we called it unemployment insurance.

Not all solutions are written down and calculated in advance, and there are many opinions in a society. All opinions must be heard. I have already seen people start to come forward. I have seen 50 senators speak out on the importance of an income security program like this one. I applaud that initiative.

However, we will need to listen to all levels of society and find the most balanced solution that best meets the needs of workers who regularly find themselves between jobs or, as in the current case, in a very serious crisis and in need of replacement income.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

I'm certainly seeing in my riding and across the country so many people who are missing out. We've talked about the figures of those who have accessed the emergency benefit. There are millions of people who can't, and they are suffering. They're struggling to put food on the table. They're struggling to keep a roof over their heads. That is why Jagmeet Singh and others, like the 50 senators you mentioned, have proposed that this be a universal benefit. It's already constructed to be so; it's just that there are all these obstacles put in people's way.

Mr. Brown and Mr. Saul, you very eloquently spoke to the number of people being left behind, including international students, so my question will go to the two of you.

Would it not simply be easier to remove the barriers around the universal benefit so that international students and others who are jobless and struggling to put food on the table could access it?

First Mr. Brown, then Mr. Saul.

[Adam Brown]

To my knowledge, international students are able to take advantage of the CERB. One thing puzzled us when the Canada emergency student benefit was announced earlier this week: We weren't sure why international students aren't able to take advantage of it. International students currently have limitations on the number of hours they work, so the revenue they can get can varies depending on how they use that.

We are hoping that international students are taking advantage of the CERB as much as they can, but it would be preferable to see the CESB opened up to them as well.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Saul.

[Nick Saul]

I would certainly be in favour of opening the gates as much as possible to accessing CERB. Whether this collective vulnerability we're all experiencing as a society galvanizes a new kind of conversation in our country about how much we support people who have basically fallen out of the economy and fallen out of society...I think it's a very important one.

We have to have the courage to say there is a number that no one should fall below. Whether it's $2,000, $2,500 or $3,000, that's a conversation to have. Then you could argue that perhaps it's better to reform EI, accelerate the Canada housing benefit and the workers benefit and implement pharmacare.

I think we need to have the courage to say that far too many of our fellow citizens are completely being ignored. That costs us. Morally it costs us. We are signatories to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which is about the right to food, and we are failing that miserably.

I'm all for supporting as many people as possible to ensure that they can put food on their tables regularly, and we're not doing that right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have to move on. You only have nine seconds Peter, and I know you can't do it all in nine.

We'll turn to five-minute rounds. Mr. Poilievre is first, then Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

[Technical difficulty--Editor] do any paid policy work for the Government of Canada or for the Liberal Party of Canada?

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

Thanks for the question. It's always a pleasure to take a question from the member.

I have given policy advice over the last few weeks to the Government of Canada. I have not taken pay for it.

What I can say is that I'm a professor at a public university and paid by tax dollars, and I think it's my duty to take calls from—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

No, no, sorry, just.... We're very limited in time—

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

I have the floor, please, remember.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

—very limited in time—

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

I have the floor.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

—very limited in time—

[Prof. Kevin Milligan]

I'm trying to answer your question, sir.