Finance Committee on May 28th, 2020

[Cliff C. Groen, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Canada - Benefit Delivery Services Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Certainly, we did implement the programs very, very quickly. I can speak specifically for the Canada emergency response benefit. There are limitations related to the amount of data that is being collected as a result.

However, there is actually a wealth of statistical analysis that we can do. We are really trying to do that analysis related to who the benefit is impacting most and what sectors are being most impacted positively through coverage and different elements. Because we did implement it very quickly, the readiness of those results is a little longer than what we would normally see, but there are opportunities for us in leveraging the data we're collecting, as well as further analysis that we will be able to share going forward.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

That's great.

Is it possible, Mr. Groen, for you to share with the committee what data is being collected?

[Cliff C. Groen]

Certainly, and there is actually an active request that we are working on. I would suspect that very shortly we would be able to share that with this committee.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

That's very much appreciated. Thank you.

My next question is from our last panel. There were some comments about the loan guarantees that are given to companies through the EDC and the BDC, in that there's not a lot of transparency, so there's not a lot of information that we can find beyond who's actually taking on the loan and the amount. Is there someone who could verify what information we might be collecting in terms of when these loans are provided?

[Soren Halverson]

What I can tell you is that both programs are run through the two Crown financial institutions under their own authorities, so I draw a distinction between those programs and the Canada emergency business account, where parliamentarians have had a little more of a rapid view into the deployment of the program. The reason why information has come so quickly in that case is that it is a government program. It's directly government funded. Funding is flowing every day from the consolidated revenue fund through EDC to the financial institutions and in turn to the small businesses. Because of those transactions, it's easy to have very much a real-time snapshot of what's going on.

With the EDC guarantee, the information has more latency in it. I think what we're finding is that it's a challenge for the government, and it's clearly something that parliamentarians have an interest in knowing in terms of how much of this activity is going on in real time.

There's a bit of lag in reporting coming from the financial institutions to Export Development Canada. We are having conversations—I had one today—with people from financial institutions to help remedy that situation so that we have more real-time insight into what's going on. As with the Canada emergency business account, one of the features of that program is that the financial institutions are on the front end and you have a hundred different institutions, so there's a bit of data aggregation issue. We need to work that out and clearly do better at aggregating information and reporting on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ask your last, quick question, Julie.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Halverson, just to close the loop on that, if you could maybe also provide to the committee what data we might already be receiving, that would give us a better understanding of what we're gathering at this point, and maybe we could make some future decisions as we move forward.

I do have another question, but I'll leave it for another time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I ask my first question, I have a message for all of the departmental representatives who are here. Earlier, I asked the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity a question about the supplemental employment insurance benefit. I spoke to the Minister of Finance about it and I spoke about it in the House. The President of the Treasury Board is the one who responded to me. I implore you, from the bottom of my heart, to try to find a solution to an unfair situation. Workers are receiving a supplement from the employer and they are forced to pay back the CERB. Businesses did that in good faith. In my opinion, that is an unwarranted injustice. We are in the midst of a crisis and we cannot let them down. Please continue to look for solutions. Thank you for listening.

I believe my first question is best addressed to the representatives of the Canada Revenue Agency. There is a program to temporarily enhance the old age security and guaranteed income supplement programs. I would like to know when the cheques will be issued. Employees from my office called the Service Canada help line and were told that the cheques would be issued on June 26. Can you confirm whether such is the case?

[Cliff C. Groen]

Hello.

I'm Cliff Groen from Service Canada.

Service Canada will be the one sending out the cheques. The exact date has not yet been determined.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

If I could just step in for a second....

Cliff, you might have your language on English when you're speaking French. I'm hearing both at the same time.

[Cliff C. Groen]

I'm sorry.

As I was saying, Service Canada will be sending out the cheques for this benefit and we hope to do so as soon as possible. We do not yet have an exact date, but one will be announced in the coming days or weeks.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

My next question is on a different topic. The government announced that it would create 116,000 jobs for young people between the ages of 15 and 30, including about 40,000 under the Canada summer jobs program. When will we get more information about the 76,000 other jobs? Seven hundred jobs were announced in the agricultural industry on May 26, but that still leaves many others.

Many businesses, organizations and municipalities are waiting to get a clear idea of how much room they have to manoeuvre this summer. The departmental report mentions 116,000 jobs for the month of May. May is almost over. That's a lot of jobs to announce per day. Can you tell us where we are at with this?

[Cliff C. Groen]

I can take that question. I don't know whether there are other people from the department who can answer that question, but I don't think it falls under the responsibility of anyone here. Perhaps Mr. Ram or Mr. Conrad might have something to add. However, we can take note of your question and get back to you on it as soon as possible.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

My next question is for the representatives of the Department of Employment and Social Development or the Department of Finance.

Is the government currently working on a system similar to employment insurance that would enable recipients of the Canada emergency response benefit who want to go back to work not to lose 100% of the $2,000 benefit as soon as they earn $1 more than $1,000 in income a month?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who wants to take it?

Go ahead, Mr. Ram.

[Elisha Ram, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

It's true that under the employment insurance system there is a whole series of rules that allow people who are on claims to earn income and to be able to keep some of the benefit at the same time. As my colleague Mr. Groen has already explained, the Canada emergency response benefit is a very simplified form of income support. It had to be set up that way given the historic high volume of claims that came in at the beginning of the crisis. One of the consequences is that not all of the features of the unemployment insurance system could be replicated. That simply could not be done in time, and had we tried to do it, that would have meant that people would have had to wait a very long time to receive their benefits, which in a crisis situation was simply not acceptable.

So, we have not been able to reproduce the “working while on claim” rules under the Canada emergency response benefit, but there is in place right now the $1,000 exemption that allows people to earn up to that amount and still keep their benefit.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry, Gabriel, we are out of time.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Because of the poor sound quality, the interpreter was unable to translate the entire answer, so I didn't get the last part.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

[Elisha Ram]

I'd be happy to provide a response in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, Gabriel, there will be a response in writing. There is going to be a response from Mr. Groen in writing as well.

I would just point out, on Gabriel's question—and Mr. Julian asked a similar question earlier—that there is a substantial fear among those out there in the workforce that they might go a few dollars over the thousand and then they will be obligated to pay a serious amount of money back. I know I've told some who have mistakenly received both employment insurance and the CERB that maybe they should just set aside the CERB and hold it for now so they will have that at income tax time. I said, “Don't spend it.” So, there is a fair amount of fear out there, and it is very hard to calculate exactly where you are at when you are working a job and the employer may need you for a few extra hours as well. We don't want it to be a disincentive to work.

Now we have Peter Julian, and then we will go on to Mr. Morantz.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much and thanks for taking the second round.

I appreciated Mr. Poilievre's question, and I share his question around the short-term financing of the debt as we come through this pandemic.

If you don't have the information for this question, I would appreciate it being provided to the committee afterwards. What was the division of the debt coming out of the Second World War? The PBO has said that the GDP ratio is actually below what it was then, but do you have the historical knowledge in the finance ministry about what the debt structure was like in 1945?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I believe Mr. Halverson is coming on.

[Soren Halverson]

Hello, Mr. Julian. Thanks for the question.

I personally have not seen the term structure of the debt in the Second World War, but I will take that question back and see what we can find in the records.