Evidence of meeting #42 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A video is available from Parliament.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
It was likely sometime in late April, but in general terms.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Mr. Shugart, I don't want to interrupt, but I believe if you look at your little circle down below on language.... You need to have it on the language you're speaking. You're coming through to me on both languages at the same level.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Thank you very much, Chair.
With apologies to Mr. Fortin, perhaps it would be better if I just spoke in English. That will save confusion of [Inaudible—Editor] of the technology back and forth, if that would be agreeable.
Bloc
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
In English or French?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I think Mr. Fortin said that he wanted it in French, but you're the witness. It's your choice.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Okay, I'm having a little difficulty navigating the screen here, Chair, so I think for that reason I will respond in English.
I became aware of the involvement of WE Charity in a general way. I hope the committee will appreciate that a vast range of issues were going on at a very intense time. The clerk is not involved in every file, and that was the case. In fact, in some of the briefings, colleagues were with the Prime Minister's senior PCO colleagues, so my involvement with this file directly was fairly limited until recent days.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You said you took part in meetings regarding WE Charity in April, with senior officials.
Who were those senior officials? Can you name them off the top of your head? Who did you have those discussions with?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Yes, of course.
From PCO, there was the deputy secretary who supports cabinet, Philip Jennings, and the deputy secretary who is responsible for our operations, including many of the relationships with other departments, Thao Pham. Both of those officials—at least one or the other—would have been in all of the briefings with the Prime Minister.
Bloc
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
As will be shown by the timeline that I can provide the committee, the Prime Minister was briefed prior to cabinet meetings and on at least one other occasion discussing the development of the program, the options, the design features, etc.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Very well, but do you recall whether he or his chief of staff attended the meetings, personally?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
In the meetings to which I refer, Chair, I am speaking about the Prime Minister.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
The Prime Minister, personally, took part in the discussions on WE Charity. Is that correct?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
At that stage of the development, for example, when the recommendation was fully formed that we were recommending the WE Charity as the third party partner, yes, the Prime Minister was personally involved, of course.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
When you received WE Charity's proposal, did you conduct any internal reviews of its financial health and ability?
You were hoping to entrust the organization with managing a $900-million contract, so I would think you initially did some digging to find out who you were dealing with. It wasn't something you more or less did.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
As I said in response to Mr. Poilievre's question, Chair, of course there would be scrutiny of any organization and its ability to deliver a program if it was envisaged that it would be the vehicle for that task. Issues of the financial—
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You said "would", but in this specific case, did you scrutinize WE Charity's creditworthiness or soundness otherwise in relation to its ability to administer the program?
If so, who did those checks and when? Can you give us details on the case of WE Charity?
I'm not asking about what you generally do. I know it's something you do in general, but in this specific case, was it done?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
As I indicated, Chair, no financial flags were raised through this process about the WE Charity. To the best of my knowledge, officials did not engage in detailed scrutiny of the financial affairs of the organization. I stand to be corrected by subsequent testimony, but to the best of my knowledge there were no detailed investigations of WE Charity's financial affairs.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Shugart, did the Prime Minister or his chief of staff ask that WE Charity's financial integrity and ability to administer the program be scrutinized?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
The Prime Minister's chief of staff, given the scale of the program, did make the point, which was accepted by everyone, that due diligence and care needed to be exercised with regard to WE Charity. Ms. Telford was not referring to the financial integrity of the organization. Those issues, to the best of my knowledge, were not raised.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We will have to end it there.
Next is Mr. Julian, and he will be followed by Mr. Barrett.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
Thanks, Mr. Shugart, for being here today. We hope you and your family remain safe and healthy through this period.
You said in your testimony that it was around the end of April, in a general way, you became aware of the WE proposal. As we heard from testimony last week from Ms. Wernick, the WE proposal arrived the same day that the Prime Minister announced the program. In her testimony, Ms. Wernick gave very clearly in reply to questions the statement that the public service was not aware of the details of the program and actually learned about it the same day.
When did you become aware specifically of the proposal from WE? For the timeline we need as part of this finance committee study, I would appreciate, and I think we all would appreciate, getting that as soon as possible. When did you first become aware of the WE proposal?