Evidence of meeting #42 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Daniel Lapointe  President, Focus OSBL Consulting Service, As an Individual
Joshua Mandryk  Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
Chris Aylward  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay.

Who in the PMO was aware of the details of the program before the April 22 announcement? Did the Prime Minister know that the program was being awarded to WE before that April 22 announcement?

11:35 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

No, he did not. The initial announcement explicitly, if I remember correctly, included the Prime Minister indicating that further details would follow, that there would have to be further development of the program. This was the announcement by the Prime Minister that many of the gaps affecting students, that had arisen as a result of the pandemic, the government fully intended to address, and there would be a program along these lines.

At that point, the public service, and presumably WE Charity, went to work in a vigorous way to design the program in detail, which was then brought forward in proposals by the minister to the COVID committee and later ratified by cabinet.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

Before I turn to Ms. Dzerowicz, perhaps somebody from the official opposition could give me a signal if they want in on the next round. I don't have anybody on my list. Mr. Shugart did not take time at the leadoff, so there's more time for questions.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I will take it, Chair.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Ms. Dzerowicz.

July 21st, 2020 / 11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Mr. Shugart. Thanks for being here today. Thank you so much for your leadership and service to our nation, especially during this unprecedented time.

I want to start off by going back to March and April, when the severity of the pandemic became obvious and the Government of Canada was very focused on providing Canadians with as much help as possible. I just went through everything that was announced before April 22, and I literally have four pages of announcements. There was an unprecedented amount of work done by our civil servants to provide supports to the homeless, to the arts sector, to the business sector, to individuals—you name it. We introduced a whole number of programs.

In terms of students, as you just mentioned, there was a huge concern about the unevenness of what was available in terms of jobs and opportunities and the ability for students to be able to continue to have financial means to be able to support their ongoing education. On April 22, $9 billion was announced to support post-secondary students. There were four key programs. There was the Canada emergency student benefit, expanding more jobs, in addition to CSJ, with adjustments to Canada student loans and grants to make them far more generous. This last segment was the Canada student service grant, which was up to $912 million. It was meant as a way to provide an opportunity for students to not only volunteer, serve in their community and help non-profits, but also to earn a little bit of extra money.

Again, my understanding is there was a stacking element. You could actually have up to three of these components. We could give many opportunities to students across this country and give them the best ability to be able to continue to work or continue to support their community while also trying to raise some funds for their ongoing education.

There's this false narrative around the federal government setting up the Canada student service grant to provide an hourly wage for students. Can you please relate to the committee whether there was the intention to provide an hourly wage or whether it was meant as part of an overall package, some additional support, in a grant format?

11:40 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

My understanding...and I want to underline to the committee, Chair, that I am not the file expert, and one of my many flaws is a non-encyclopedic memory. But my understanding is that this was intended to help provide for the needs of students who, because of the inability to have part-time work or perhaps the support from families that have been affected by job loss, etc., were not able to access the CERB and they could very well be in hard times in terms of their own income.

So in the form of a grant, as you say, this was intended to meet that financial need, but as part of an engagement putting students who would otherwise have been studying to work in ways so that they could make a contribution through non-profits and support to the community and so on during the pandemic.

I might point out that one of the criteria, one of the requirements, of the WE Charity was to be able to support this kind of thing in a safe way, so that the public health goals of limiting the spread of the pandemic would be supported and attended to through this vehicle.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

So it was never meant to be an hourly wage, just an additional support, and one of many numbers of different things that the government was introducing to try to support the students.

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Well, I stand to be corrected by officials in the relevant departments, but that is my understanding. You're correct.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Last question, Julie.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

It's a two-part question, Mr. Chair.

You had also indicated that the PM was personally involved in the discussions of WE once they were recommended by the civil servants and this is not untypical. This happens to all major programs, and it's typical. If you could confirm that...?

I think the other thing that's really important for us to have on the record is that the Prime Minister has apologized for not recusing himself from the cabinet decision when it came to cabinet to finally approve WE. While it's absolutely typical to actually be involved in the discussions around big programs such as this Canada student service grant, I think the Prime Minister did indicate that he should have recused himself from the actual final decision at cabinet.

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

You're correct. He has said that on the record, and that was his decision to convey that.

I do repeat that I don't how the Prime Minister—and let's remember, we're talking about the former Minister of Youth here—could not have been involved in understanding the development of a program of this importance and of this scale.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thanks, both of you.

We're turning to Mr. Poilievre, who will be followed by Ms. Koutrakis.

Ms. Gaudreau, we'll have time for a question from you, I'm sure.

Mr. Poilievre, you have five minutes.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Do you commit to releasing all of the communications between PMO staff and PCO with regard to the Canada student service grant and the WE Charity contribution agreement?

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I believe the committee should have access to as much of this information as possible.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

So that would be a yes, that you will proactively submit that to the committee clerk?

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Thank you very much for that.

Secondly, could you commit that you'll do the same for all communications from the finance minister's office to PCO and to the finance department?

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I will do that.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Thank you.

Next, during previous testimony by Ms. Wernick, I asked her who it was that told her to reach out to WE to deliver this program. She gave the name of a Finance Canada official, Michelle Kovacevic, who apparently convened a meeting across departments. Were you aware of this mid-April meeting?

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I wasn't, Chair. Whether officials at PCO would have been aware at that point of the development, I do not know.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Do you know if there were any PCO officials in attendance at that meeting?

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I can verify, but I don't believe so. But—

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Can you commit to releasing the names of all the participants in the meeting and finding out if there are any notes from the meeting and releasing those to the committee as well?

11:45 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

We'll include that in what we provide.