Evidence of meeting #42 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Daniel Lapointe  President, Focus OSBL Consulting Service, As an Individual
Joshua Mandryk  Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
Chris Aylward  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

How many ministers signed the memorandum to cabinet for this initiative?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

This would have been one minister; if I remember correctly, Minister Chagger.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

The lead public servant we are told in this matter was Madam Wernick, who works at Employment and Social Development.

Why is it that the minister for employment and social development, Minister Qualtrough, refused to sign on to this memorandum to cabinet?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I wouldn't use the word “refused”. It's because Minister Chagger is the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth and this was a youth program, and the Department of Employment and Social Development supported that minister in the development of the program.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What is the name of the official who assigned Rachel Wernick to work on the Canada student service grant?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

It would have been the natural placement of responsibility. As the senior ADM in that area of the department, the responsibility would naturally have fallen to her.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What was the name of the Finance official who assigned Michelle Kovacevic to work on this file?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

It is the same answer, Chair. This would have fallen within Michelle's responsibilities as the relevant ADM.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Did any member of the Prime Minister's staff raise the possibility with PCO that WE could be the delivery organization for the Canada student service grant?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

To the best of my knowledge, Chair, the answer to that is no.

There were discussions involving Employment and Social Development, Finance, the ministers' offices of Finance and the Prime Minister's Office throughout various stages of the development of the proposal, but the proposal for the WE Charity to be the third party partner was recommended to the government by Employment and Social Development.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

This is the last question, Pierre.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I'm going to ask one more time, as broadly as I can, did anyone in the public service raise any red flags about the financial integrity, the financial practices, the financial sustainability or anything, any other problems related to the WE Charity finances before this issue went to cabinet?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

The answer, as far as I am aware, is no.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

We'll turn now to Mr. Fragiskatos, who will be followed by Mr. Fortin.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Shugart, for being here, and for all your work, particularly during the pandemic.

My first question relates to contribution agreements.

Are contribution agreements reviewed by the PCO?

11:05 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Primarily the responsibility for the contribution agreement would be the relevant department, but the broad lines of a contribution agreement might very well involve scrutiny by the Privy Council Office or the Department of Finance, or even frequently the Treasury Board Secretariat.

I do know that along the way the Privy Council Office did ask ESDC officials if there was any potential for a competitive process, in this case, if the WE Charity was the only appropriate vehicle for this contribution agreement. Ministers themselves—you'll appreciate that I won't go into detail, Chair—at cabinet discussion raised issues about the capacity of the WE Charity, about how it would reach out to under-represented students to ensure reach right across the country, and various other matters, all of which would be reflected in the contribution agreement.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

As part of the general scrutiny given by the Privy Council Office that you mentioned, sir, is there a vetting process to ensure that decisions are not made whereby there's a conflict of interest?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I wouldn't say, Chair, that there is a precise process or any established methodology. Every situation is unique. Every issue of conflict of interest or its appearance has its own unique context. In this case, the issue was not raised, as I indicated in response to Mr. Poilievre's questions, and I wouldn't say that in the contribution agreement or in the cabinet procedures that we went through there was any particular provision for flagging conflict of interest.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Mr. Shugart, you've been a public servant for many years and have made a great contribution throughout. I would ask about the future of the Canada student service grant here. With your experience with regard to seeing how programs go ahead or don't go ahead and the various issues related to that, what would you say we could do here to ensure that the Canada student service grant can go ahead? What is the future of the program, in your view, and can it be offered? What can would-be student volunteers hope for at this point and what can not-for-profit and charity organizations, which are in many ways on the front lines of the COVID-19 response, expect at this point? It's July; in fact we're heading into late July. Is it still in fact possible to offer a program along the lines of what the Canada student service grant was envisioned to be?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Six of those public service career years were spent as the deputy minister of Employment and Social Development in fact.

I will not speak for officials in that department or in Minister Chagger's area of youth support, but my understanding is that a program will be stood up. It will take advantage of the I Want To Help platform that exists at ESDC. It will offer much less in the way of wraparound services to students. That is a consequence of the public service having to deliver the program. From the beginning the government has been concerned about the impact of the pandemic on students and has been determined to provide whatever support can be offered through this program, but it will without question be less than what was envisaged through the third party delivery of the program.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I have one final question, Mr. Chair.

Why was WE chosen, Mr. Clerk? What about WE particularly stood out? We've heard from others, including PSAC, who we'll hear from later today, the Public Service Alliance of Canada, of course, that it should have been the public service that administered the program.

What in your view stood out about WE? Why were they uniquely placed to offer the administration of the program?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Well, I certainly understand and appreciate the vote of confidence as one would expect from PSAC, and I generally agree entirely, of course, with the ability and the talent of the public service to deliver programs, and I think we have seen what the public service is able to stand up on relatively short notice.

What WE was able to provide, I understand, was the full range of services that would go to the heart of this matching program that would put young people in contact with not-for-profits so they could gain the relevant experience. WE had the ability to promote the program with a massive social media following, and experience in other situations of matching young people to service opportunities. The department was not equipped to provide that. Existing database information and representation right across the country with partnerships with other charities and so on were features that gave the on-boarding and the matching elements of the program the capacity to be delivered.

As I indicated in response to your earlier question, what we're dealing with now demonstrates that WE was going to be able to provide a level of service that the public service could not by itself provide, notwithstanding its best efforts and experience.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

I will turn to Mr. Fortin, who will be followed by Mr. Julian.

Mr. Fortin, you have six minutes.

July 21st, 2020 / 11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Welcome, Mr. Shugart. I'm glad to have you with us.

When did you learn of WE Charity's proposal?