Finance Committee on July 21st, 2020

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Are you aware of any program of this sort that is provided by way of a third party? You noted in your testimony that to source a $900-million program out to a third party was unusual. Could you elaborate on that?

[Chris Aylward]

As I said, this kind of program is already being administered within the federal public service, along with many others as well, so when we saw that this particular one was being contracted out, we had to ask why. Why is this being contracted out? Why should any federal program be contracted outside of the capable, accountable, transparent federal public service?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, we will have to end that round there.

We'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz, followed by Mr. Fortin.

Julie.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the presenters for today.

My first question is for Mr. Mandryk.

Mr. Mandryk, would you not agree that, because of COVID-19, the federal government is operating in unprecedented times?

[Joshua Mandryk]

Yes, of course.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Are you aware of many of the federal government emergency programs that have been introduced to help broad groups of Canadians during these unprecedented times, like the CEBA, the CERB and the rent subsidy programs? Are you aware of those programs?

[Joshua Mandryk]

I am aware of those programs, and I'm aware that students were initially excluded from CERB, and that might have contributed to the rush in having to put this together.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you. I wanted to ask those two questions.

We just heard from the Clerk of the Privy Council prior to this panel. We heard that when the student programs were introduced, the $9 billion, four major programs were introduced and the intention of this government was to provide as much.... Because of how students were disproportionately impacted across this country in different regions, we were trying to provide as many work opportunities as possible, as many opportunities as possible for students to engage in their local communities and support the COVID efforts, as well as to provide as much financial support as possible, because we knew there was a lot of stress about how students were going to be able to pay for their education moving forward.

We heard that the Canada student service program was not meant to be an hourly wage. It was meant to be a grant and was part of a big package during these unprecedented times for us to be able to support our students.

The second thing I wanted to mention was that we heard from Ms. Speevak from Volunteer Canada, who indicated to us that there's a difference of opinion within the non-profit sector about whether grants and stipends should be provided to volunteers at certain times.

The last thing I wanted to mention is that Minister Chagger, in a previous panel, indicated to us that she felt very confident that the bureaucrats who were responsible for the Canada student service grant had ensured proper legal opinion to ensure that everything was set within the law.

I wanted to end, Mr. Mandryk, by indicating a huge thanks to you. You've made a number of recommendations. Our civil servants right now have the program in hand, and I think your recommendations are going to be very helpful.

I want to turn my attention to Mr. Aylward. Mr. Aylward, you can't imagine the heartfelt thanks that Canadians have for our public servants. If there was ever a time when we were so enormously proud, it would be right now. The number of programs they've been able to introduce during these unprecedented times...and most of them not in their offices but from their homes, making do with whatever they have, to do whatever they are possibly able to do. I know there is enormous gratitude from all Canadians.

Mr. Shugart, the Clerk of the Privy Council, just indicated to us that it's absolutely normal for the federal government not to deliver all programs, and that it's very typical and indeed very effective for us to go to a number of non-profits to deliver programs. For example, food security programs are very big in Davenport; the Community Food Centres of Canada would deliver that.

I wonder whether you agree that, in some cases, it is more effective for public servants to work with various non-profits to deliver programs.

[Chris Aylward]

Certainly, from time to time it probably would be advantageous for the government and for those non-profits to do such work. The oversight of that work still has to be maintained within the public service. I would suggest that what you're saying should be the exception rather than the norm. As I said, why would you want to contract out anything outside the federal public service, the accountable, transparent, capable public service? Normally, with a few exceptions, that work cannot be done more efficiently once you contract it out.

[Joshua Mandryk]

Mr. Chair, I had about two minutes of statements put to me. I never had an opportunity to respond to them before you turned to another speaker. Can I have an opportunity to respond to the various assertions that were put to me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, you can answer, and then we'll give Julie her last question.

Go ahead.

[Joshua Mandryk]

Thank you.

There was a suggestion that there's a difference of opinion with respect to the payment of volunteers. First, if I were allocating a $900-million program, I wouldn't want to be resting on a difference of opinion as to its legality. When we're talking about this difference of opinion about whether it's okay to pay volunteers, let's be clear about what we're talking about.

We're talking about Johnny coming into the shelter to help people, and he has to take the bus here. Is it okay if we pay for a bus pass for him or buy him some tokens? Suzie is coming to help us with our charity barbecue. Can we feed her afterwards? Can we give some sort of small token to reward her? We're not talking about it in the scope of giving students $5,000, at $10 per hour or less—not these massively structured, sub-minimum wage payments. This is not within the scope of the debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ms. Dzerowicz, this is your last question.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Aylward, I just want to ask you very quickly.... I don't want Canadians to be left with the impression that with what was proposed by our excellent bureaucrats in terms of a contribution agreement, whether it's the WE Charity or somebody else, there wouldn't have been proper key deliverables and accountability mechanisms. We've heard from the Clerk of the Privy Council, as well as from other senior bureaucrats, that contribution agreements are absolutely typically done. In this case, it was done in a short time frame, and it was also because there were very specific requirements.

I don't want to leave Canadians with any impression that there would not have been key deliverables and key accountability mechanisms in place. Would you agree that this is the case with the contribution agreement?

[Chris Aylward]

What I would turn my mind to is this. For any organization, if you say that's the only organization capable of doing this, and then you have to provide $43.5 million to ensure that this organization is able to deliver that program, that's what I think needs to be questioned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

We'll turn to Mr. Fortin, followed by Mr. Julian.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for you, Mr. Aylward. From everything you've said, I gather that you think Canada's public service would have been able to administer the program. At least, that's your view.

To your knowledge, was anyone asked to provide an opinion on that before the contract was awarded to WE Charity? Were you involved in discussions with members of the Prime Minister's office or cabinet to ascertain whether you were capable of administering the program?

[Chris Aylward]

There was no consultation at all. I've checked with our members at ESDC. As far as I know, none of our members, anyway, were consulted either.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

To your knowledge, had the public service been tasked with administering the program, would there have been enough people available to do the work?

[Chris Aylward]

I would have to say absolutely yes, for sure, without a question.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I take it, then, that had you been asked to administer the program back in April, chances are good that things would be further along by now, July.

[Chris Aylward]

That's exactly the point here. This was decided in April; it was announced in June, and here we are in mid-July and there's still no real, true program. As I said, that's unfortunate. If the public service had been asked in April whether they could do this, I think the answer would have been yes, and I think you would have seen the program well under way by now and students benefiting from this program.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Aylward.

Now I have a question for you, Mr. Mandryk. You're an expert in labour law and you're well versed in the area of internships and not-for-profit organizations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood from your remarks that you were somewhat sceptical about the idea of paying volunteers for their work, as in this case.

I heard you mention the possible reimbursement of expenses and the giving of gifts. I'd like you to comment a bit further on that. Given your expertise, you don't think it's appropriate to compensate people for volunteering. Do I understand that correctly?

[Joshua Mandryk]

I think, generally, payment for work is antithetical to volunteering. When organizations give payments to volunteers or some sort of reward to volunteers, they need to be extremely careful about that. I think the scope of the debate of acceptable sorts of payments, reimbursements or honoraria is about things like giving someone a bus pass, or giving a festival volunteer a pass so they can attend that festival, or in some cases providing very modest honoraria to reflect some folks' expenses. But that's the scope of what the debate range is. It's not $5,000 payments.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Let's take the example of someone wanting to lend a helping hand during the COVID-19 pandemic, someone who has a choice between working for minimum wage or more and volunteering for $10 an hour.

Don't you think the program is a bit counterproductive? Isn't it a disincentive for people to volunteer, encouraging them instead to find paid work, as per the rules in place where they live?