Finance Committee on July 21st, 2020

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

All right, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to spend my three minutes talking to you, Mr. Lapointe. You're an expert in governance. You're the president of NFPOFocus and you used to be CEO of Katimavik. You've written two books and you teach at the Université de Montréal. Given all of that experience and Mr. Mandryk's comments, I'd like to hear your opinion.

This initiative to help young people was described as being counterproductive, in terms of both the organization and delivery. I'd like to hear your take on that.

[Daniel Lapointe]

It is true that the way the program is being implemented gives rise to some unintended consequences. The first issue that was raised has to do with paying people for volunteer work. That could undermine the spirit of volunteering and the efforts of all not-for-profit organizations to encourage volunteer involvement in the community and the country, as a whole. The way it works, the amount of time a person volunteers is tied to a lump sum payment.

As you mentioned, during my career, I've headed both Canadian and Quebec associations. Right now, I'm a consultant, teacher and book author. As a consultant, I'm in contact with a lot of organizations in Quebec, and the COVID-19 pandemic virtually crippled their operations.

They aren't fully able to meet the demand, in other words, taking on volunteers, training them and providing them with everything a volunteer experience should.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Lapointe, given your Canada-wide expertise, did the government consult you to see what you thought?

[Daniel Lapointe]

No.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I see.

What would you have suggested to the government in terms of what it should have done? You have 20 seconds to answer.

[Daniel Lapointe]

Basically, I would've suggested working with outside parties. That's routinely how Canada does it, by the way.

Ten years ago, when I was at the helm of Katimavik, I was one of those outside parties. What makes this unique is that such a huge program is being entrusted to an organization—WE Charity—that doesn't have all the necessary expertise. The organization was in the midst of forming strategic alliances with other organizations to acquire all the expertise it needed to deliver on the program objectives. That's an admission that, internally, it doesn't have all of the expertise. That's what I find surprising.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lapointe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

We'll go to Mr. Julian.

To finish up, we'll have Mr. Barrett, Mr. McLeod, Ms. May and Mr. Gerretsen, and then we will have time for one more official opposition member in there somewhere.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I must say, I'm a little dismayed by some of the attacks against witnesses. I thought Mr. Gerretsen was being quite inappropriate in his comments.

I will also reply to Mr. Fragiskatos by mentioning that on July 9, the Durham Radio News noted, in an article entitled “YMCA and WE say hundreds of volunteer jobs on government website were mistakenly posted after miscommunication error”, the following:

There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of student volunteer jobs that may not even exist and they’re being advertised on a government website. They were posted when the WE charity was administering the $900-million dollar federal aid program.... The YMCA says those positions were created by the WE Charity and they never agreed to host them.

There are constant references to jobs involved in this scandal.

Mr. Mandryk, have there been cases where employers have tried to get the employees to volunteer their services and then, subject to litigation, have been told that is not something they can do?

Also, in one word how you would describe this debacle with all the liability issues and the lack of due diligence that we see as we uncover the layers of this onion? Do you have one word that sums up your reaction to this program?

[Joshua Mandryk]

I think you hit the nail on the head; it's a mess.

As I mentioned a bit earlier, there are older cases involving volunteer misclassification. I'm aware of some arbitration cases from maybe 10 years back where a company tried to get its employees or outside individuals to volunteer and it was found to be bargaining unit work. I'm not aware of a case like this where there's this large-scale, highly structured program where we're talking about millions and millions of potential hours of work at $10 an hour, or even less. I don't think this sort of program is contemplated by past cases dealing with volunteering, because this to me seems very clearly to be a problematic arrangement.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

What we don't know is who is driving this: the whole lack of due diligence, the massive amount of money involved, the fact that students would benefit less than if the investments were made in Canada Summer Jobs instead. The more we ask questions, the more I think additional questions come up in this absolute debacle.

Mr. Aylward, I'd like to come back to the issue of contracting out. The fact that we have professional members of the Public Service Alliance of Canada ready and willing to implement such a program, who already have the procedures in place and who already know the protocols and how to proceed, what is the impact when the federal government contracts out such a massive program, a billion-dollar program, without any due diligence at all and without any due regard to minimum wage laws, to labour standards, all of the things we're talking about today?

[Chris Aylward]

It's demoralizing to the members. It's demoralizing to the employees when they see that sort of thing happening. Would it have caused job loss? No, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. But still, to see work that is currently being done, very similar work, being contracted out is demoralizing for federal public sector workers for sure. There's obviously a priority there with the type of work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're back to five-minute rounds.

We have Mr. Barrett followed by Mr. McLeod.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I want to start by thanking Mr. Aylward and his members.

With respect to the administration of the Canada summer jobs program, in my riding of Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, I can tell you that the program was oversubscribed. It was launched late due to a government announcement, and with all the challenges of COVID-19, there were a lot of moving pieces. A record number of employers were approved, and we were absolutely flooded with applicants who were interested in applying. Unfortunately, the funds for the program were exhausted, and all of the approved employers did not receive placements, much to the disappointment of folks in my community, both on the prospective employee side and on the employer side.

There are great challenges that exist with respect to filling employment positions, so I appreciate your testimony, Mr. Aylward.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Lapointe for my first question.

There are public reports, including an interview with the managing director of Charity Intelligence, that detail the sudden resignation or replacement of the board at the WE organization. In your experience in this sector, is that unusual?

[Daniel Lapointe]

Would you mind repeating your question, please, Mr. Barrett? I wanted to switch to the French channel so I could answer, and I missed what the interpreter was saying. My apologies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Perhaps you could refer to the question part again, Michael. There was a problem with translation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

To Mr. Lapointe, there are public reports, including reporting on an interview with the managing director for Charity Intelligence, that detail the sudden resignation or replacement of nearly the entire board at the WE organization. In your experience, is this unusual?

[Daniel Lapointe]

If that information is true, meaning that the entire board of directors resigned, it's indeed unusual and worrisome. It's certainly something to keep an eye on and would be subject to scrutiny, given that the board of directors has a dual role. It has a strategic role, of course, but it also has a fiduciary role. There are certain expectations of stability and expertise of a board of directors, to ensure the organization has proper governance.

It's rare and worrisome to see an entire board of directors resign collectively or, rather, simultaneously, since it wasn't necessarily coordinated.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

When you look at the governance model for not-for-profits, does that model typically include a for-profit arm and a not-for-profit arm of the same organization, under which the not-for-profit pays the for-profit for services?

[Daniel Lapointe]

The model whereby a charitable organization has a non-charitable arm does exist and is seen from time to time. I would point out, however, that the non-charitable organization isn't necessarily for profit. In other words, it could be another not-for-profit organization with commercial operations aimed at fundraising for the charitable arm.

I don't bring this up to muddy the waters, but is Me to We a profit-oriented enterprise? I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's fairly rare to see a profit-oriented enterprise closely associated with a charitable organization. What is more common is a non-charitable not-for-profit organization with close ties to a charitable organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll give you time for a quick question, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

My last question is again for Mr. Lapointe.

For not-for-profits and their influencing of public policy, would they generally register as lobbyists?

[Daniel Lapointe]

The Lobbying Act stipulates that, when lobbying constitutes a significant part of a person's duties, that person has to register. If they are making submissions to government officials, it doesn't matter whether they work for a profit-oriented enterprise or not. I was at the helm of not-for-profit organizations, and as CEO, I was registered as a lobbyist.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thanks, both of you.

We're turning to Mr. McLeod, who will be followed by Elizabeth May.