Finance Committee on July 30th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Is that a friendly amendment, Mr. Poilievre?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. It is a friendly amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

Madam Clerk, I expect you got that as amended?

I see Mr. Sorbara's hand up. Who else was yelling? Does anybody else want in?

[The Clerk]

Before we move on, sir, can I make sure that's an addition to the end of the motion? Okay.

To be sure I have it right, that was “including the cabinet memos for May 8th and May 22nd”...?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, “concerning the WE Charity recommendations.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. I have Mr. Sorbara. If there's anybody else, let me know.

It's Mr. Sorbara and then Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We sit here for what I believe is the fourth or fifth hour consecutively on the second day. This afternoon obviously we have had testimony from the Prime Minister of Canada, who came into committee for 90 minutes and answered many questions and, I think, clarified many issues that I wanted to hear about. We also now have had the chief of staff to the Prime Minister come to committee for two hours and answer many questions and provide clarity on many of the issues that have been raised and the questions that have been asked. It just seems to me, with this motion that's being put forward by MP Poilievre and with an amendment by the NDP, that it's, if I can call it this, scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's a witch hunt for junior staff members and so forth. We had today the Prime Minister and the chief of staff here at committee answering questions. It seems as though this is, if I can call it this, more desperation, scraping at the barrel again. That's my view of it.

Plain and simple, we've heard testimony over the last several weeks, extensive testimony, about the program, about how the program came about, about the recommendation that it be provided via a third party and about how it went to cabinet, and further questions were asked. This, to me, is an unnecessary scraping at the bottom of the barrel by the opposition.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

I have Ms. Dzerowicz. Is there anybody beyond that before I go to the question?

Ms. Dzerowicz, you're on, and then we'll see if anybody raises their hand.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I think Mr. Sorbara was literally reading my mind. I was going to say exactly the same words. This is a desperate attempt. After we have very thoroughly investigated the intention of the original motion; proved there's been no misspending of any money; proved it has been responsibly signed, responsibly negotiated and responsibly selected, and that there's been no interference by the Prime Minister or by any cabinet minister; proved that it was suggested by civil servants and that they have done an excellent job, a responsible job, it's unfortunate that we have this ending right now. It seems as though, in a desperate attempt by the Conservatives to keep this alive somehow in the media—somehow they need to continue to keep this in the media—they're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I will also point out that a motion was put forward by Mr. Julian on Thursday, July 2. We discussed it a few days later. All the relevant information around the decision regarding WE Charity and ME to WE and the design and creation of the Canada student service grant, the written correspondence, everything from March 2020 onward, is going to be provided no later than August 8. I think all of that information will be provided. I think we'll be able to validate everything we have heard over the last couple of weeks and over five meetings. I just don't understand why there is a need for this motion today, so I will not be supporting it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

Is there anyone else, or are we ready for the question?

Mr. Fraser, you will probably wrap it up.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Certainly. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I might just add my voice to that of some of my colleagues. There are two points in particular that rub me the wrong way when it comes to the proposed motion.

I think chiefly my concern is about the precedent that this would set to start bringing more junior staff within political offices than those we've already heard testify. The Prime Minister of Canada and his chief of staff were here during this meeting. I've seen what has happened when we have had civil servants brought before the committee and badgered in a manner that I think is the kind of thing that will cause civil servants to more broadly be careful about giving open and honest feedback to governments. I don't appreciate the practice this committee has implemented in their treatment of certain witnesses. I think we will potentially go down the same path should we continue to pull more junior staff as witnesses in this testimony.

I also want to raise the point that we don't actually have any evidence that there's been an effort by anyone at the political level to influence the workings of the civil service. If I heard evidence to that testimony, I would think otherwise. Starting to request documents that are subject to cabinet confidence when there's no evidence whatsoever that they will suggest what the opposition has been hinting they might suggest, I don't think is a useful exercise for the purposes of this committee. For that reason, I won't be supporting the motion.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Then maybe Mr. Julian is going to wrap it up.

Mr. Julian, I saw your hand up.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

It's true I sponsored the original motion. Throughout the last three weeks we've been hit by revelation after revelation, things that were told to us that were supposedly facts that turned out to be very different. That's why this scandal has exploded. For any member of this committee to say we don't want to go any further because we may uncover other contradictions, other dishonesty within what we and what Canadians have been told originally, I think would not be doing the due diligence that we as a committee need to undertake. We need to get that information and we need to get these answers for Canadians.

It's very clear that, as this has gone along, a massive number of revelations have come in around the finance minister, around the Prime Minister's involvement and around the complete lack of due diligence in this mess. I can understand Liberals putting on a partisan hat and saying they don't want to get any further information, but we, all of us, do have a responsibility to get that information and to compare the facts so that we know what has actually occurred. That's why I'm supporting the motion. I think we have to do that due diligence. It did not happen in the government. Our responsibility as parliamentarians is to perform that due diligence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Madam Clerk, we will go to a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The motion is carried and that information will be passed forward.

We are in a position to adjourn.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I promise this will be my last.

I wanted to thank you for your good work throughout this meeting. I know it was a tough meeting to chair, and you did a fine job. I was happy to help in my own small way where it was possible and I want to let you know, if there's ever a big storm again out in P.E.I., you can give me a call. I'd be glad to come out and help you through it again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

All right, thank you for that.

Yes, it was a big storm. It's the first time I got blacked out.

With that, again I want to thank the Library of Parliament people because I know they've been doing yeoman's work. Thank you, Madam Clerk, and all the other clerks who have helped us this week, and the interpreters. I know we have a steering committee meeting tomorrow as well.

In any event, thank you one and all, and I thank the members for their efforts this week.

The meeting is adjourned.