Finance Committee on July 30th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Poilievre, just hold on. You're going to have to switch to your French channel because I can't make you out. I'm hearing two languages at once.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

The time has come for the Prime Minister to stop blaming public servants. He is the one who was elected to be accountable to Canadians and who was responsible for ensuring that the money was well spent. Public servants are not the ones who forced him to pay nearly half a billion dollars to a group that had paid his family nearly half a million dollars.

Is the Prime Minister taking personal responsibility for approving this huge amount of money that he spent by giving it to his friends?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

First, I want to set the record straight. I have nothing but admiration, respect and deep gratitude for the public service that has been able to professionally launch extraordinary programs during this pandemic to help millions of Canadians. These programs have had a real impact because of the work that public servants have done and continue to do, and their excellence is thanks to these youth services that make it possible to launch youth programs. I am sure that they made the appropriate recommendation, which is to launch this program in the best possible way. Unfortunately, in part because I did not recuse myself from the process, there was a perception that prevented us from launching this particular program. However, all the programs that we have provided to Canadians—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll go back to Mr. Poilievre.

You have to split about 40 seconds.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I have a straightforward question. How many times must a minister in your government violate the Conflict of Interest Act before being fired?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

We take it very seriously any time ethical issues arise, and we will deal with every situation head-on.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

How many times? How many times?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Poilievre, the Prime Minister has the floor. He has the right to answer.

Mr. Prime Minister.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

We will always take seriously—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

How many times?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

—any breaches of official codes. We will ensure that there are consequences and we will look at every situation differently.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Fine. In English I'll ask my last question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Your last question is over.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

My last question, in English, would be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You're over your five minutes.

Last night you people were giving me the gears for not sticking and adhering to time. I'm adhering to time today.

Mr. Fraser, you have the last round for five minutes. Then the Prime Minister will be released.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Prime Minister. Before I begin, I want to express my gratitude for your assistance in securing a public inquiry into the mass shootings that took place in my home province of Nova Scotia. It means the world to us at home.

To the matter at hand, you've acknowledged during this meeting and previously that you should have recused yourself from the decision. I appreciate your willingness to admit that. You've also mentioned that, when it first came up in cabinet, you pushed back against the competing concepts of the need to conduct due diligence and at the same time to recuse yourself.

Of course, you remain responsible for the oversight of the policy direction and program implementation of the Government of Canada. Though I believe you were right to say you probably should have recused yourself from that conversation, I have difficulty with how you would have simultaneously exercised the kind of oversight that caused you to push back during that May 8 meeting.

Had you recused yourself, how would this additional oversight have taken place if you had not been involved in the process and the discussion at the cabinet table?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

That is an excellent question. The quick answer is that other members of cabinet would have stepped up and ensured proper oversight, but you do highlight one of the challenges of making policy in as condensed a fashion as we have during this pandemic. We have been flowing aid to Canadians, to different groups, and filling gaps across the country with innovative partnerships, with creative ways of approaching things, because we needed to be there for Canadians. Yes, things were truncated. Things were shortened. Programs that would have taken six months to develop and deliver were instead done in a matter of weeks. It was a particularly challenging situation.

If you'll allow me, Mr. Fraser, let me also say thank you to you and to your fellow Nova Scotia MPs for being so strong in your advocacy to make sure that answers get given to those families. Your leadership on this has been both personally and professionally appreciated.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

In terms of the process that we've learned to date, there was a public service recommendation. We learned two days ago, when the Kielburgers were at committee, that the public service actually recommended that they adopt a new foundation, essentially, or at least approve a new foundation to have the flow-through money to make sure that WE Charity was willing to accept liability. They said only a third party can do it. I understand, to your point about other members of cabinet providing that oversight, that it would have gone to cabinet committee before it came to full cabinet on May 8, where you still pushed back.

I'm curious. It sounded like your reservation was about the possibility that there might be a perception that your family or people close to you would have directly or indirectly benefited. Were you satisfied when it came back to cabinet, when this was finally approved, that there was no possibility that your family, directly or indirectly, was actually going to benefit from the Canada student service grant program?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Yes. There was no way that my family would have benefited from these grants to students across the country.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Let's get back to the matter at hand. I was a former youth leader and I took part in different programs: the Canada summer jobs program, student government and the like. They hugely shaped who I am.

I want to build on Mr. McLeod's line of questioning.

Where do we go from here? I still very much support the values that you outline behind the student service grant program. I understand there are going to be difficulties over the course of this summer implementing something that will provide that kind of opportunity, but what's the next step? How do we get this program or some other support on the rails to provide the kind of support to students that you have clearly communicated is important to this government?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Your answer will have to wrap it up, Prime Minister.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

First of all, throughout this pandemic, we've had to deliver certain things and suspend other things. Our priority has been to help people through this pandemic. That really needed to be our priority, particularly for students. That's why we put out the student CERB. It's why we've created new jobs and why we are deferring student loans.

This was an additional way for young people to be involved, to volunteer and to reward volunteerism among young people throughout the country. It is still a goal of this government. That's why we created the Canada service corps a number of years ago. Actually, youth volunteerism is one of the things that brought me into politics a dozen years ago. I was working with Katimavik and realized that we needed to do more youth volunteerism and youth service in this country.

This will continue to be a goal of mine and something that is really important for the country—to see young people stepping up in their communities, helping out people who need help, discovering the value of service and becoming engaged, active citizens in their communities and in their country for the rest of their lives.

This was an opportunity to fit this into a COVID context. However, even as COVID continues, and even beyond COVID, getting young people to serve in their communities will always remain a goal for this government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

With that, on behalf of the committee, Prime Minister, I thank you for appearing before the committee and spending an extra 32 minutes with us today.

We will suspend for five minutes and come back with the chief of staff.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll call the meeting to order and reconvene.

Just to remind people, we welcome you to the second panel of meeting number 47 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. We are meeting on government spending, WE Charity and the Canada student service grant.

On this panel we welcome Katie Telford, chief of staff to the Prime Minister. I believe she has about 10 minutes for opening remarks in a two-hour session.

Am I correct on that?

Okay.

I'll turn over the floor to you.

I might say to the clerk before we start, Ms. Telford, that my connection got blacked out once today already. There is an unbelievable thunder-and-lightning storm here. If it happens again, you will know why.

We will turn it over to you, Ms. Telford. Welcome.

[Katie Telford, Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, members of the finance committee. I would first like to thank all of you for your important work and for giving me the opportunity to answer your questions here today on the implementation of the Canada student service grant.

Let me start by saying that this is a remarkable time. From the day we learned that a Canadian had contacted COVID-19 to what is happening during the time period you're interested in, this pandemic, which we are still fighting, represents a once-in-a-generation challenge for our country.

I started working for the Prime Minister after my maternity leave, and what a journey it has been. I ran his leadership campaign in 2012-13 and went on to lead the 2015 campaign, and I have been his chief of staff ever since. Unbelievably, my son just turned nine.

Some of you may know that I am a person interested in data. Data has always helped me to assess what we are doing well and what we need to do better. These past few months, every day I woke up to some very alarming statistics, as we all were. They were more than statistics: hundreds of people dead because of COVID-19; hundreds of people were applying for the CERB because they had lost their job; millions of families were going through a really tough time; millions of women in lower-wage jobs were being especially hurt, and women's participation in our economy being set back.

Every day, daily projections were telling us and still tell us that if we weren't and aren't successful in slowing the spread of the virus, things would get much worse.

The Prime Minister's job is to help Canadians in need. I am his chief of staff, so my job is to support him in everything he does. I've been in politics for quite a while now, and this pandemic is a challenge unlike any in history.

Having the opportunity to make a difference in people's lives is very rewarding. Since the beginning of the crisis, we've announced a host of support measures to protect Canadians' health, to help those who lost their jobs and to prepare for the economic recovery.

We acted as fast as we could, knowing we might make mistakes along the way because people were really struggling, so we needed to move quickly. Take the emergency response benefit or the Canada emergency wage subsidy, for example. We'd already announced these programs when we realized that we needed to make them more accessible, more generous and simpler, but job one was to get these programs out the door to help people.

When we realized that improvements were needed, we made changes. The CERB and the wage subsidy have since helped millions of Canadians right across the country. Moreover, back in April, our government announced a $9-billion plan to help young people get through the pandemic. It included measures such as the Canada emergency student benefit, deferring student loans and, yes, the Canada student summer grant.

I want to go back to the first time we discussed a potential aid package for students. On April 5 there was a meeting by phone, as they all were at that time, between the Prime Minister and the finance minister. It was a stock-take on the entirety of our government's ongoing economic response to the pandemic.

There were 15 decision points on the Canada emergency wage subsidy that Sunday evening, and it was being announced the next day. That was the focus of the call. We also talked about an orphan well program for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland to help workers in the energy sector who had been hit especially hard by the crisis.

At the end of that conversation, the finance minister spoke about gaps he had identified in existing programs like the CERB. We knew that some people were still falling through the cracks, people like seniors, seasonal workers and, yes, students.

At the time, the Ministry of Finance was thinking about some form of financial assistance, more Canada summer jobs and a moratorium on student loan payments. We also talked about using the Canada service corps to encourage and support young people who wanted to volunteer and help their community during this pandemic. That was a very brief part of a larger conversation, and everyone agreed that there was more work to do.

Just a few weeks later, after a lot of hard work by many people across the government, the Prime Minister announced a $9-billion aid package for students that included the items I just listed. The Canada summer student grant program was one-tenth of that package.

When I think back to that time, it was at the end of April that the public service informed us, in a briefing note, that an outside organization could be used to administer the Canada student service grant program. Questions had been raised about the government's capacity to implement such a program and about whether we could provide financial compensation directly to students.

However, it was only on May 8 that I saw for the first time, along with the Prime Minister, the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth's proposal to have WE Charity administer the program. The recommendation prepared by the public service had been examined and approved by the special cabinet committee on May 5, and we had a quick glance at it for the first time before the cabinet meeting on May 8, at which, the recommendation was supposed to be ratified.

As the Prime Minister mentioned in his opening statement, both of us had concerns. That's why, on May 8, we took the Canada student service grant off the agenda for the committee meeting. The Prime Minister, whose commitment to helping youth precedes his involvement in politics, and I both had questions. We wanted more information on the effectiveness of such a program and the use of an outside organization to administer it. To be perfectly frank, we were worried about how it would be perceived. We work in politics, so it matters how our decisions are perceived. We sought assurance from the public service that WE was indeed the only organization with the capacity to administer the program and that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, WE was the right partner for this initiative.

When the funding note was approved, the Prime Minister added a stipulation to the effect that, should the program be expanded, the minister had to submit a written request to the President of the Treasury Board for additional funding.

This proposal to help students was recommended by the public service. This was not a choice between different organizations to deliver the program; this was a choice between going forward with the program or not.

I will add that we had previously received the Ethics Commissioner's approval for Sophie Grégoire Trudeau's work engagement with the WE Charity, so I wasn't aware of any conflict.

You have heard the Prime Minister say that he regrets not recusing himself. I have regrets about that too. Obviously, this didn't happen as we intended it to, and this is not what we had envisioned, and I share in that responsibility.

Over the past few weeks I have thought a lot about this program. I have thought about what we could do better, and how we could apply lessons we've learned going forward. In hindsight, I recognize that while we did ask many questions to make this program a success, we could have done better. We could have done more. We could have added yet another layer of scrutiny to avoid any potential perception of favouritism.

Mr. Chair, I work with a team of committed, hard-working individuals. We're not perfect, but we are committed to being better and to doing more and, perhaps most importantly right now, we remain committed to serving and supporting as many Canadians as we can, as quickly as we can.

As the daughter of retired public servants, I have the utmost respect, not only for public service but also for those who choose it as a career. I want to take this moment to thank them and my colleagues for the work they continue to do under especially challenging circumstances. I believe that we all get into public service to help others—and what a time it is for all of us to be doing that. We thought that renegotiating NAFTA was a challenge. Well, this pandemic, I am sure, is the challenge of our generation and of my life. To have the chance to take up this work during this time, with this team, under the leadership of this Prime Minister has been and remains a privilege.

With that, I'm pleased to take your questions.