Finance Committee on March 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't see his hand up now.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I had put it down, Mr. Chair. Mr. Ste-Marie is kind.

I was going to raise a point, but I think you dealt with it.

With due respect to Mr. Kelly, I don't think we can. They are two separate things. We're here to hear officials on C-14.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Mr. Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the officials, senior officials and employees here with us today.

Personally, I have a lot of questions about Bill C-208 and only a few about Bill C-14.

I would suggest that we continue with our questions about Bill C-14 until 5:30 and then move on to our questions about Bill C-208 from 5:30 to 6:30 with the other representatives, as scheduled.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, we're trying to find a compromise here.

Let's start with questions on Bill C-14 first. There are a lot of officials here, and I know they've been waiting quite a while.

We'll start with Mr. Fast. What I'll do is cut the questions down to four minutes so that we can get more people in. We'll go to about 6:40 my time. That's 5:40 in Ottawa.

Mr. Fast, go ahead for four minutes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Actually, I had my hand up also on that same point of order.

Mr. Ste-Marie had just made a suggestion on how these two bills should be handled. I'm not sure where you actually landed on this, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I think if we give a half-hour to this discussion on Bill C-14, that will put us at about 5:40 Ottawa time. That will give us about 50 minutes for Bill C-208.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

That's great. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You're on, Mr. Fast, for four minutes, followed by Mr. Fraser.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

All right.

To the officials, you were present when I asked questions of the minister about chart A2.3, which basically sets out the borrowing capacity that is being asked for in Bill C-14. Can you give me any further insight, line of sight, into how this borrowing would be deployed? When I look at the chart, I'm seeing about $323 billion of, effectively, unallocated money. At some point in time we're going to have to have a clear idea of where it's going to be deployed or spent.

There's the $100-billion stimulus piece. That's the only piece that actually has any indicator as to where it will be spent. We have no clarity on that, either.

I'd be interested to hear from our officials exactly how that borrowing capacity will be deployed. It's expected to all be used up over the next two to three years. Am I understanding that correctly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who wants to take that?

Mr. Moreau.

[Nicolas Moreau, Director General, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I can take this one.

Basically, when you look at the chart that was presented by our minister earlier, this represents the borrowing needs of the Government of Canada but also the Crown corporations. To that number we add, basically, the $100 billion that you referred to for the stimulus package. We also add a 5% buffer, just to take into consideration the fact that there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding fiscal projections.

To your question specifically on how this money will be deployed, I think I need to refer you to the budget. In the budget, basically, we present the expected spending and revenue for the next three years. That has been used in order to build that figure.

In terms of details, I think the best reference will be the budget text, but also, basically, the corporate plans that have been in place by the different Crown corporations in Canada.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you for that explanation. You've just touched on what the hot-button issue here is, and that is the budget. You've referenced the budget. The budget and the spending authorities really should come as one package. In this case, the borrowing authority has been separated out. It's like putting the cart before the horse. We have a budget that's supposedly coming, but it hasn't come for two years. However, the government wants us to trust that it's going to use that borrowing authority wisely. We have no track record or reason to actually trust it.

Again, I'm wondering why it is that the budget still hasn't been tabled, yet even you, as finance officials, are linking the borrowing in Bill C-14 to what might come in the budget. I'm puzzled, unless I misunderstand this.

[Nicolas Moreau]

Mr. Chair, I can take this one again.

I should have been clear. Basically, this is based on the fiscal forecast that had been presented in the fall economic statement of 2020. If you recall, in this document we did show a fiscal projection for the medium term. Based on those figures, this is how we've been able to, basically, forecast what will be the expected financial requirement and the expected debt limit that we want to set for the government.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

A fiscal forecast is not a budget. Isn't that correct?

[Nicolas Moreau]

A fiscal forecast is based on forecasts of revenue and spending based on already.... To your point, a fall economic statement is not a budget. You're right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It's your last question, Ed.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you.

Can I ask, has your department been asked to consider what fiscal anchors might be deployed to make sure that, in the long run, the finances of our nation are sustainable going forward and don't become a huge burden on future generations? If so, can you just briefly mention what those fiscal anchors might be?

[Nicolas Moreau]

Thank you.

At this time, I think the priority, as mentioned by our minister, is to take a look at the COVID situation. I'm not working at the department that is in charge of looking at fiscal anchors or at any other targets that we have for our debt. I don't have an answer to this question, sadly. I am sorry.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Really...? Wow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. Just to be clear here, the Borrowing Authority Act and the budget are two separate pieces. Am I correct?

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes, I agree, but they are inextricably linked and should be done in context. Quite frankly, what we need is a budget to let us know why that borrowing authority is required in the first place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, then we do agree.

Mr. Fraser, you have four minutes, roughly. Then we'll go to Mr. Ste-Marie.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question really stems from the minister's comments on the Canada child benefit, which is going to see an extra $1,200 flow to certain families who are below the $120,000 income threshold, and additional supports that may not be quite as generous for families who earn more but nevertheless qualify.

I'm curious about this additional money to families. How quickly will it be able to flow once this bill receives royal assent?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who wants to take that? You'll have to yell, because I cannot see everybody on my screen.

Ms. Taylor, do I see you?