Finance Committee on April 29th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes. You're quite a bit over time, but that's fine. It was very good.

Mr. Reimer, thank you for the suggestions there.

We'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz, who I believe is splitting time with Ms. Koutrakis.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair; and thank you to everyone for the very thorough and thoughtful presentations. There was a lot of very important information for us to be hearing today.

I have questions for all of you, but I have less than three minutes to ask.

Mr. Reimer, I'm going to start with you as well.

I hear you. You're right. There's an unevenness in the recovery. We get your point that the support we're providing needs to be targeted, and I think we're very much trying to do that with our programs in terms of eligibility.

As you know, through our budget we're approaching $1.2 trillion in debt. We know our companies are still struggling across this country, particularly in our tourism sector. I don't think there's any expectation that our federal government is going to swoop in and give every single company everything they need.

Therefore, what's fair? You've provided some ideas, but what is fair in terms of what the government needs to provide more of and what we should be expecting from companies in terms of being able to step up? Is it that within the tourism industry, where people have completely lost all their lifelines, we need to do even more, irrespective of what businesses are able to contribute?

What's fair in terms of government stepping up, versus a company? How would you respond to that?

[Mike Reimer]

I think we have always been built by entrepreneurs and people who understand there's no money left in the pot. We get that. We actually don't want it. We want to engage our people, our staff. We want to open and do business. The biggest help would be if government could create what I just mentioned, these unique avenues perhaps—and I don't know how difficult that would be—for visitors to begin coming to Canada again. That would be our greatest gift, our greatest ask. It's to back away a little from this response of locking the doors every time there's another COVID event, and to perhaps rethink this whole strategy and come up with a plan by which we can safely move people back and forth, in and out of Canada, without impacting our general population. I don't know if that's possible or how that would work.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thanks so much.

I'll ask one more quick question then pass it over to my colleague.

ACORN Canada, I know you're very focused on low-income and middle-class families and Canadians. We have announced in our budget we're increasing the Canada workers benefit quite substantially, investing $8.9 billion, which is going to top up one million low-income Canadians. Can you tell me whether or not you believe this is going to be supportive of low-income Canadians, particularly the ones you represent?

[Blaine Cameron]

Yes. A lot of our members are low-income workers and a lot of them are frontline workers, so anything that benefits or helps them make ends meet is going to be quite beneficial, as they're in a really precarious place where lost income immediately affects their material well-being and their health. If someone is trying to afford their rent and they can't go to work because of the pandemic, as I mentioned in my presentation, they're going to have to start compromising what they buy at the grocery store, and the cheap stuff you can buy is detrimental to your health.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Cameron.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

Annie, you'll be followed by Mr. Ste-Marie. You've got about two minutes, Annie.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the Hebdos Québec representatives.

Last year, the government announced the special measures for journalism component of the Canada periodical fund, which is designed to provide short-term emergency financial relief to community newspapers and magazines affected by the COVID-19 crisis.

Have your members accessed funding under that component of the Canada periodical fund? If so, how has it helped them keep their publications going?

[Benoit Chartier]

Thank you for your question.

Yes, last summer, weekly newspapers across the country received support from the federal government through the Canada periodical fund to help them cope with the COVID-19 pandemic. There was also a full-page ad and various amounts of funding that were handed out. The assistance was certainly welcome. We have about a hundred weekly newspapers in Quebec, so the support made a difference for us. That said, what we are currently getting from the federal government is somewhat less than what the CAQ government in Quebec is providing. It's actually tough to compare the two, because the Quebec government is a lot more generous with COVID-19 support than the federal government.

As I said in my opening remarks, we are expecting to receive further assistance, given that the newspaper industry is being battered by two storms. Not only has the COVID-19 crisis resulted in a significant drop in revenues, but we are also engaged in an internal war against Google and Facebook, one that is undermining newspapers across the country. Daily and weekly newspapers, big and small, are all affected, ranging from the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star to Le Courrier de Saint-Hyacinthe. With the American global giants shamelessly and unapologetically stealing royalties and advertising revenue from us, we are all struggling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you all.

We're turning, then, to Mr. Ste-Marie, followed by Mr. Julian.

You have six minutes, Gabriel.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their participation and opening remarks. We certainly appreciate it.

I, too, have questions for the Hebdos Québec representatives.

As you pointed out, you are simultaneously being battered by two storms, or crises. In the face of competition from Facebook, Google and other web giants, weekly newspapers are suffering. On top of that, their revenues are declining because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Something you said struck me—the number of newspaper titles has dropped from 200 to just 113 in the past few years. That's almost half. The ones that remain have had to tighten their belts, cutting staff by 20%. Nevertheless, you clearly provide communities with an essential service. Access to high-quality local news is crucial.

You pointed to a number of issues, including the fact that the government buys more ads from web giants than it does from your members' online services. You said the federal government had introduced support measures, but they obviously aren't cutting it.

As far as any new legislation is concerned, you brought up the model adopted by Australia. Can you tell us more about it? What does Ottawa need to do to ensure the continuity of the essential service you provide?

[Benoit Chartier]

You're right, Mr. Ste-Marie, the service we provide is essential. Newspapers are a cornerstone of Canadian democracy. Without newspapers, there can be no democracy, no Parliament, no elected representatives, no elections. That is unmistakable—we agree.

The federal government could do two things right away.

First, it could stop outright placing ads on Facebook, Twitter and Google. Millions of dollars in advertising spending are flowing out of Canada to the United States; meanwhile, hardly any advertising dollars are going to Canadian newspapers. The consequences are disastrous. For nearly four or five years, we have been urging the Canadian government to advertise in Canadian newspapers to help uphold democracy. It's a matter not just of newspapers' survival, but also of Canadian democracy. That's the first thing the federal government should do immediately.

Second, it should pass stringent laws to counter the impact of Facebook and Google in Canada. On that count, we are waiting for the Minister of Canadian Heritage, Mr. Guilbeault, to bring forward his bill, which we hope will impose strict conditions and force Facebook and Google to stop undermining Canadian media. We hope the bill will be introduced as soon as possible and receive unanimous support from the members of every party currently represented in the House of Commons, whether it be the Conservative Party, the NDP, the Bloc Québécois or the Liberal Party. Obviously, the bill is desperately needed.

We are calling on the government to model the bill on the Australian law. We would actually like the government to more or less replicate what Australia has done. If the government does impose restrictions on the web giants, it must be ready for them to fight back, because they will not sit idly by—to be sure. They want Canada's advertising dollars and they want to undermine Canadian media. That is their goal.

In a nutshell, Canada should follow in Australia's footsteps. I urge Mr. Guilbeault and the members of every party to look to Australia's law, which will be very effective against Facebook and Google in that country. We hope to see the same in Canada.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chartier. Your answer was crystal clear.

Mr. Poisson, did you have anything to add?

[Sylvain Poisson]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

I do have one quick thing to add to what Mr. Chartier said. Not only must the government do something, but it must do something right away. It mustn't wait months, let alone a year. The government needs to act now.

We realize that the legislative process can be long and complicated, all the more reason to act as soon as possible. Otherwise, the future of media in this country will be in jeopardy. The government needs to act swiftly.

Thank you.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

In the budget, the government announced that web giants would finally have to pay royalties, but we don't know when. Are you expecting the government to pass on the money it collects to you, in the form of direct support? After all, the web giants are stealing your content and profiting from it.

[Benoit Chartier]

I gather the royalty you're referring to is the 3% tax on digital services. Yes, we are hoping to get a bit of the money from the tax that Facebook, Google and similar digital media services will have to pay. However, what we are most looking forward to, Mr. Ste-Marie, is tough legislation to counter the effects of Facebook and Google. That goes to the heart of the problem. The only way to slay the monster immediately is to aim for the head. Recognizing that is imperative.

We all saw the controversy that broke out in Australia. Facebook had no qualms about removing all links to government websites and major Australian news media from its platform. That shows how Facebook and Google react when they are backed into a corner.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I have time for another question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have time for a very short one.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Great.

We have less than two months before the summer recess. At the moment, work on Bill C-10, introduced by the Minister of Canadian Heritage to amend the Broadcasting Act, is not very advanced. In addition, the minister wants to propose a bill against hateful content online. And that's not counting the bill on the web giants that he promised you this spring. That's a lot of work to do in less than two months.

Furthermore, we know that an election will be called this summer. Are you concerned that the bill meant to support you will not be introduced until after the election, unfortunately?

[Benoit Chartier]

Yes, that's our concern.

We would like to see the priority given to the bill to support the media. In our opinion, it is even more urgent than Bill C-10 and the bill against hateful content online. It is a matter of survival. Not just the weekly newspapers are in trouble; every newspaper in Canada, from the smallest to the largest, is in a state of crisis.

[Sylvain Poisson]

It would also be possible to combine the three into one huge bill, but that may well complicate things.

[Benoit Chartier]

It would be a mammoth bill.

[Sylvain Poisson]

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you all.

We're turning to Mr. Julian, followed by Mr. Kelly.