Finance Committee on Oct. 28th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If we continue, Mr. Chair, we can look at an email exchange, and I'm now looking at page 310 of the Department of Finance document. This was an email exchanged between Ms. Kovacevic, the minister's office staff and departmental officials. In this chain—it goes from page 310 through to page 318 of the Finance release—we get all of the information in the body of the email, all of it. All we have in terms of redactions are private cellphone numbers, which do not need to be in the public domain, and our non-partisan public service removed it.

Again, I will acknowledge that the motion says that some of these redactions, specifically those that relate to personal information, ought to have been made by the law clerk and not the government. I also understand the civil service's point of view, which was not given at the direction of the government but done independently, that they are bound by legislation that requires them to seek the consent of parties who have been the subject of a request to have their personal information disclosed, and if that consent is not obtained, to conduct an assessment as to whether the public interest clearly outweighs the need to protect privacy. In this instance, the limited public interest in having members of the public have access to the personal cellphone number of an employee or civil servant did not outweigh the privacy interest in protecting that personal information, and I agree entirely.

The email is labelled, “For urgent review: May 8 - Cabinet Note on Canada Student Service Grant”. The body of the email states, “Someone will send you all the CSSG stuff. I don't know if there was an official request or what - something seems broken!” It has kind of an odd email signature: “sent by MK's sassy smartphone”. I don't even think that was relevant. Nevertheless, the government produced it, but the number of that “sassy smartphone” was redacted.

These are the kinds of things that are throughout the entire package, and I'm just reading these directly from the source material that was produced. There's probably information in there that did not need to be produced, based on relevance. Nevertheless, it was included, because the government, as was explained in the remittal letters, tried to take a broad and principled approach to production of the documents.

Similarly, the phone number from the email was excluded. The body of the email, including everyone it was sent to, again with the subject in bold, “For urgent review: May 8 - Cabinet Note on Canada Student Service Grant”, reads: “I don't know how this is moving but can someone in addition to the cabinet process send directly to amit gillian's note and the two documents at the links as attachments - proposal and Chagger's annex for tomorrow.” This is talking about documents that are clearly going before cabinet. It's labelled “Cabinet Note” in the subject line of the email, and it brings into the body of the email the name of one of the government ministers who held responsibility for some of this program development.

The email chain further gets into some details. It says:

Please find attached (and at this link) a copy of a Cabinet note for the Minister for your approval.

Please note that the Cabinet discussion will focus on two short documents from Minister Chagger: - The original presentation to COVID committee on May 5 - here - The proposed revisions following the COVID Committee meeting for consideration at Cabinet - here.

Please let me know if you have any issues accessing the documents and I would be happy to share them as an attachment.

That was from Gillian Webster, a senior analyst focused on indigenous policy with Finance Canada.

All of the material describing the original presentation to the COVID committee, describing documents from Minister Chagger, describing the proposed revisions following the COVID committee meeting—all of that content is there. The professional contact details of Ms. Webster, the senior analyst on indigenous policy with the Department of Finance, are actually included. The government made a decision to disclose her work email and phone number as a public servant. However, if you look at the redaction, it appears that a cellphone number was redacted.

If you continue, you'll see Suzy McDonald, again from the Department of Finance, on an email chain with several other Finance officials, the subject line being “ESDC Student Grant”. This email is a part of the same package of documents, and it asks someone named Aiden:

Can you put together an email or short word document to summarize the ESDC proposal on student grants going to Cabinet tomorrow please? Essentially a light touch cab note

—I assume that means cabinet note—

with a bit of background and the highlights of the proposal.

Call if you have questions.

Again, the only piece redacted is the cellphone number of Ms. McDonald.

It is helpful, too, that these documents refer, wherever there are redactions, to certain sections that pertain to the reasons for certain disclosures. You can only understand why all of these matters are redacted in the way they are—and frankly, when there are documents that would ordinarily not be produced, but were—from the context that was provided to us in the remittal letters.

Nevertheless, some members of this committee are trying to ensure that those remittal letters aren't brought into the evidentiary record before this committee, presumably because they provide context that opposition members would like to ensure never reaches the public. Similarly, there is a seeming lack of willingness to allow the civil servants responsible for these redactions to appear, including the Clerk of the Privy Council, who has indicated that he is going to make himself available. Seemingly we won't hear from him either.

I think it would be particularly helpful for him to appear so that we can understand the process that he and others within the civil service employed to ensure that the selection of material to be redacted was made in a principled way and not in a selective manner, as was specifically explained to be the case in those remittal letters. I think that's extremely important and an essential context.

The Department of Finance's document at page 312 follows on the heels of the documents I have been referring to. It is an email from Ms. McDonald, dated Thursday, May 7, at 7:55 p.m. It is sent to, and copies, those who work in Finance, with the subject line "Canada Student Grants”. It has several attachments, including “CSSG Proposal for Cabinet”—a Word document—which has been updated, and a “Note for minister” that says “CCSG”. I can only assume it in fact means the CSSG.

The email, to “Amit”, says:

Here are:

1) The original proposal that went to Committee

2) The updated proposal that is going tomorrow

3) Our note on the updated proposal

The cell number is blacked out, and that is the only thing blacked out.

I think you are catching my drift here, but the documents continue.

If you look at the next page, page 313, you see that it is headed “ Proposal for the Cabinet Committee on the Federal Response to the Coronavirus (COVID-19)”. The subheadings are “Implementation of the Canada Student Service Grant”, “The Honourable Bardish Chagger”, and “May 5, 2020”. It is watermarked “DRAFT” in the background.

Mr. Chair, If there was ever a document that would ordinarily be subject to cabinet confidence, I dare say this is it. It is, again, a proposal for the cabinet committee—in fact, a draft proposal—on the federal response to the coronavirus. This is squarely within the category of documents about which both the Clerk of the Privy Council and the deputy minister of finance have clearly said that although they are not required to disclose this information, and although you as a committee have specifically asked us to exclude it from what we produce, we are going to do it anyway, and are going to waive cabinet confidence over it, because we think it will shed light on the matters the committee is discussing.

The document, if you dig into it, is really interesting. Most members of Parliament don't sit in cabinet and will perhaps never in their entire career see a document like this.

It outlines, as the purpose of the document, that the minister is seeking authority to:

create the new Canada Student Service Grant (CSSG) under the Canada Service Corps program to provide students who engage in national service opportunities during the summer with up to $5,000;

This was a point of controversy during testimony before this committee, including testimony of the Prime Minister. It makes clear that the intention of the government at the outset was to seek to have the Canada Service Corps administer this program. It's laid out there for this committee. It was given to committee members and it was not redacted, despite the fact that it is a very sensitive document in ordinary circumstances.

The document goes on to say it's going to:

create and launch the I Want to Help portal, a web-based one-window matching platform by ESDC that allows students to find volunteer opportunities to contribute to the Covid 19 response in their community; and

fund a third party organization to support the implementation of the CSSG; and the payment of the grants directly to students.

It says:

Incremental funding is required and the funding request would be made, if approved, which would be—

I think there may be a mistake there—

—to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Health through the Public Health Events of National Concern Payments Act.

A draft proposal to the cabinet committee on the federal response to COVID-19 on the implementation of the Canada student service grant is absolutely the kind of document that would be subject to cabinet confidence. Again, the motion adopted by the finance committee in the previous session of the 43rd Parliament made it very clear that documents like this were to be excluded from the request. If you read the remittal letters from the clerk or the deputy minister, you will see very clearly that they made the decision, despite the fact that they were never bound to produce this document, to do it anyway.

If I look at it, I see that it goes to the purpose of the program and the pitch. It has a summary of the proposal. It talks about the eligibility of participating students and participating organizations. It goes into detail about the purpose and the development of the I Want to Help portal. It talks about third party delivery organizations and explains that funding authority is, in fact, required.

If you dig into that section, perhaps that's the most germane among anything there. It talks specifically about ESDC's recommendation to fund WE Charity, “who has submitted an unsolicited proposal to provide support.” It says:

WE Charities is the largest youth serving charitable organization in Canada with substantial experience in youth service programming through fully bilingual programming for diverse youth in all parts of the country.

It goes on to explain in more detail why that may make sense. The entire section on a dark document marked “Secret” was a proposal being considered by the federal government's cabinet committee on the COVID-19 response. It's absolutely subject to cabinet confidence and it's remarkable that it was produced in the first instance. It's also remarkable that it was produced without redactions.

This is a key document for the committee in understanding what was going on at the time. It helps colour the timeline that had been provided to this committee. In my mind, it's the kind of thing the government would have been within its rights to withhold and not produce at all. Instead, it's been produced in full. This committee can understand, backed up by evidence, precisely the thought process that was going on at this specific time. Again, this relates to the early May cabinet meetings.

The annex to the proposal for the cabinet committee was also included. I would dare say this is obviously also subject to cabinet confidence, but nevertheless, it was produced. It includes amendments to the design of the Canada student service grant, again in the name of Honourable Bardish Chagger, and it is dated May 8, 2020. The leading sentence discusses the minister's recommendation for approval by cabinet of three changes to the proposal on the Canada student service grant to address concerns that were raised by committee members.

We are here getting into discussions that took place among cabinet committee members, including the discussion to expand eligibility to include all youth ages 17 to 30, as opposed to just students; to permit participants who receive the CSSG to also receive the Canada emergency response benefit; and to increase the number of grant thresholds from three to five.

It goes into each of those items in significant detail to explain, effectively, how the program could work, and presents suggestions that were made to improve its delivery, including how students would be compensated for their volunteer efforts.

It's a remarkable document, Mr. Chair. It really demonstrates that the government went over and above what the motion required. The issue that was raised by the motion had to do with document production. The specific exclusion of cabinet confidences made it clear that this is not the kind of document that was envisioned to be produced for the committee. Nevertheless, if you read the remittal letter, you'll see that this document was the subject of production because the government thought it would actually contribute to the public's understanding of what had taken place and to this committee's deliberations.

I will continue on, Mr. Chair, to page 326 of the document production. This is back to one of our old favourites. This is from pages 326 to 330 of the Department of Finance's release. These are the kinds of redactions that have become comical.

The email is produced in full; the subject is “risks and mitigation document”. It talks about risks and mitigation strategies. It's exchanges between civil servants with different federal departments, and seemingly the only redactions are the cellphone numbers of certain civil servants, namely Michelle Kovacevic and Rachel Wernick. I don't see a need for this committee to be delving into that kind of information whatsoever.

If I look at the attachments on risk and mitigation strategies, I see that this stuff is very relevant to what the committee actually asked for. I think this is a completely appropriate place for it to have been disclosed. It goes into significant detail around the solutions that were, at the time, proposed by WE, including the guarantee of 20,000 volunteer placements being available at the launch of the program. It talks a lot about some of the risks around the “insufficient number of volunteer roles”. It goes on to discuss Canada's non-profit sector and the fact that it would “be overwhelmed trying to manage [all the] young volunteers” who would take part in the program. There were concerns around “quality control and fraud in the system” that were outlined in this document. There were concerns around “financial irregularity in payments to participants”. There were concerns around a “lack of operational structure for the program”, around “health and safety risks” and around the fact that “not enough young people qualify for grants”. There were concerns around the facts that there are “youth with limited or no access to technology”, that there are “inadequate service placements for youth from rural communities”, that there's potentially a “lack of representation from diverse communities” across Canada and that there may be a “lack of engagement or participation of at-risk youth [or] youth [who have] special needs”. There were concerns over “participant issues management and problem solving” and there were concerns that there would be a need to accommodate “specific requests from Members of Parliament [or] government representatives in support of causes in their” own constituencies. There were “legal issues and considerations” that were outlined, and there were concerns that “the Canadian public is unaware of the [potential] impact of the program”.

All of these were risk mitigation strategies that were outlined in that document. They are clearly the kinds of things the committee was looking for. They provide valuable information about what was being considered—not just how to implement it, but the potential pitfalls that we may run into. In fact, we find that the government produced the document in full. The redactions that we keep seeing are either routinely attached to documents that the committee specifically said it didn't want or documents that clearly would be inappropriate to share publicly. Where there are meaningful documents—whether it was the summary of the presentation to the cabinet committee on COVID-19 or documents outlining the risks associated with moving forward with this program—those documents were produced in full, without redactions. The documents that were redacted largely touch on personal information or cabinet confidences.

If I continue on, I'm now looking at page 334, again on the Department of Finance's disclosure. This is a calendar invitation from Microsoft Outlook. It contains information on a conference call that was to take place on May 26. On this invitation, you'll see the relevant department officials who were responsible for the CSSG, and the only information redacted was the conference call log-in information. I do think that producing these documents is relevant. I do think that the committee asked for this document. This is a document that explains that people met and discussed the program.

Where I take issue with what's gone on here is that we are seemingly having an entire discussion about who should have redacted the conference ID for that teleconference. It doesn't make sense, Mr. Chair. Frankly, I don't care who made the redaction.

If the opposition would like to have the clerk review the redaction of the conference IDs that were used to discuss the Canada student service grant, as I've said a few times during these remarks, I think we can find a compromise there. If they're going to insist that the motion that excluded from the request cabinet documents should be interpreted that the request should have included cabinet documents, then they won't find agreement. We can't agree that a motion says the opposite of what it in fact says.

If you continue on with me down this path, Mr. Chair, we've got to be looking for a decision document of some kind. They are pages 411 through 426 of the Department of Finance's release. If you read down, there's a note throughout this. The key part is a document entitled “Delivery of the Canada Student Service Grant”.

The next subheading is “Prime Minister Decision”. The next heading is “Prime Minister Decision Exactly the Same as Minister Decision: No”. It's pretty clear here that this is a document that would characterize what cabinet confidence means. This is a document that outlines when the Prime Minister made a decision that was not precisely the same as that of the minister who made the decision to be presented to him.

If you look at it, Chair, all of the information relevant to the Canada student service grant is unredacted; it's present for everybody to see. The part that's been redacted is unrelated cabinet confidences as determined by the non-partisan and professional public service. Again, if we look back to either Deputy Minister Rochon's or Clerk of the Privy Council Shugart's explanation, they said that they employed a process to ensure that the redactions were not made on a selective basis but were made in a principled way, to ensure that there was no cherry-picking for political expediency. I would love to have them come testify to explain what process they employed to make that happen.

As was expressly permitted for in the motion from this committee, all the cabinet confidences that are related to the service grant would be released, but unrelated information was to be redacted, and it was. This isn't rocket science. It's already a rare occurrence that cabinet confidences of a sitting government are released, and the clerk took the extraordinary step to nevertheless release all of the information as it related to the Canada student service grant program, while also maintaining that he would protect necessary and unelated cabinet confidences. Everything present here has been done in the spirit of that promise and while respecting the committee's motion for information.

This is an extraordinary document. For what it's worth, after the portion that explains that the Prime Minister's decision was not precisely the same as the minister's, it reads:

The Prime Minister decided to provide up to $543.8 million to Employment and Social Development Canada for the establishment and payments under the new, taxable Canada Student Service Grant.

The Prime Minister decided to limit eligibility of the grant to students eligible for the Canada Emergency Student Benefit who are under the age of 30.

The Prime Minister further decided to convert the remaining $356.2 million in the set-aside...to a provision for this initiative. The Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth can seek access to this provision with the approval of the Minister of Finance following submission of a letter and supporting information regarding expenditures to date and demand above and beyond initial estimates. A subsequent funding decision would not be required to access this funding.

The Prime Minister also decided that the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth is required to write to the President of the Treasury Board to provide an update on the CSSG, not for approval, prior to drawing down funding for phase 2 and subsequent cohorts. For greater clarity, the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth should provide an update once WE has completed the launch of its initial 20,000 supported placements and is preparing to launch the next 20,000 placements.

The Prime Minister also decided to waive the condition placed on the Canada Service Corps program for Employment and Social Development Canada to report on results for 2020-2021 in order to access frozen funding for 2021-2022....

There is then enough space for about two or three words that have been redacted. Then it says:

...ESDC is to report back to Treasury Board in 2021-2022 when information can be fully compiled regarding Canada Service Corps program outcomes for the 2020-2021 fiscal year.

This is a document that clearly would have cabinet confidences attached to it. Again, it's the decision of a prime minister that does not accord completely with the decision of a minister that was presented to him. The upshot here is that we now have evidence that this committee holds within its possession, but that is not officially on the record, that shows that there was a cabinet discussion involving a prime minister making changes to the decisions that were presented to him by one of the ministers within his administration.

The importance of disclosing this document was clearly explained in the remittal letters of both Mr. Rochon and the Clerk of the Privy Council. They made absolutely clear that though the motion states that these kinds of documents are excluded from the category of documents that this committee requested—I shouldn't say “this committee”, but the finance committee in the previous session of this Parliament—they nevertheless made the decision to approve it, as sensitive as it may be.

It can be difficult for governments sometimes to demonstrate that one decision of one of the ministers has been overturned by a prime minister; this is exactly the kind of document that would typically not be produced. It is politically sensitive. Perhaps some people will think less of a government because the Prime Minister made a change to the decision of one of his ministers. Nevertheless, it has been produced. This is a very sensitive kind of document that's normally confidential, for good reason, but in this instance, it was provided to give clarity to the committee.

The document actually continues to outline the fiscal impact of the Prime Minister's decision. It's a classic-looking table that you might see in a budget or an annex to a budget or a fall economic statement, and it includes the accrual profile of the program. I won't get into the specific funding amounts for each of the programs, but in any event it has all been shared. The content of this particular document is not necessarily the most relevant piece, but the fact that it has been shared at all is a substantial point to make.

Similarly, the next page of the same package discusses the delivery of the Canada student service grant. If we look at the document, it shows that the minister decided to provide up to $543.8 million to ESDC for the establishment and payments under the new, taxable Canada student service grant.

The document, which is similar to the document prior, includes very minor redactions. In this instance, if you follow the explanations in the remittal letter, presumably that would be subject to cabinet confidences, but they were not relevant to the information this committee sought. If you didn't have access to those remittal letters—which, again, opposition members are seeking to have excluded from the evidentiary record—what you'll end up seeing is that this document has been produced nearly in full, and you would wonder why there are certain redactions made to this cabinet document.

We received an explanation as to why it's been redacted, in writing. Now opposition members are seeking to exclude from the record the very explanation and seemingly won't even allow the civil servants responsible for these redactions to testify before this committee, even though they've asked to show up and explain themselves.

At the very least, before we continue, I think we should have explanations given as to why redactions were made, before we jump to conclusions that they were made in a manner that breaches the privileges of members of this committee, which is a bit rich, considering these documents were not only never asked for but were specifically excluded from the request. That's the language the committee in the last session of this Parliament used.

Mr. Chair, I could go on for a while. I see that some of my colleagues have their hands up. Perhaps I'll pause there and allow one of my committee colleagues to take over. Should they exhaust their own points, I have not completed my own analysis of these documents.

Suffice it to say that the initial motion made it very clear that the committee never asked for documents that were subject to cabinet confidences, and in fact cabinet material was shared with this committee and the redactions were made only in certain limited circumstances.

If the only remaining dispute, when you read the original motion the committee passed way back earlier in the summer, is about who should have made the redaction of the personal cellphone numbers of civil servants, I think we should be able to find a solution to that off-line.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

I have on my—

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to pass along some information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Since my illustrious and very wise colleague Richard Cannings will be replacing me, much as my colleague Peter Julian did with me before, I would like to ensure that everything is in order. Mr. Cannings is already with us.

I want to check with the clerk and you, Mr. Chair, that everything is in order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, we're getting a signal from the clerk that Mr. Cannings is in and you're relieved. Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

Welcome, Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

The fresh Pacific British Columbia people are taking over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Good stuff, Richard.

I have on my list Ms. Dzerowicz, Mr. Fonseca, Mr. Poilievre, Mr. Badawey, Mr. Gerretsen. I would offer to Mr. Poilievre, so we have some cross-party discussion here.... If he wants to be bumped up to go next, I would allow him. Or do I go with the list?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, just quickly, before you hand over the microphone, I'm just curious if Mr. Ste-Marie is going to have his British Columbia colleagues subbing in for him as well before the night is over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't believe—

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Yes, it will be soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Mr. Poilievre, did you want to take this opportunity to come in now?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I note Mr. Fraser's humour. We shouldn't laugh too loud. There was basically no Bloc Québécois when Justin Trudeau became Prime Minister. They had been dead and gone and a relic of the past, and there was no separatist movement out west; now we have them both back. Maybe by the time we're done this meeting, the Prime Minister will have successfully alienated enough British Columbians to add them to the list—but hopefully not.

On the subject at hand, Mr. Chair, we're simply asking the government to do as the committee requested, which is to hand the documents over to the clerk, and for the law clerk to decide what should be released and what should not. We originally asked that. We passed it in a motion, and the government has violated that motion.

There seems to be some confusion with respect to cabinet confidences. We're not asking for the public release of cabinet confidences. We are asking for the law clerk to determine if the WE scandal documents that were excluded are in fact cabinet confidences, or if they have been misclassified as such by the Prime Minister and the officials who depend on him for their jobs.

What we are simply asking—and we offered a very generous compromise—is that all the documents that were excluded or redacted simply go to the law clerk, who is the lawyer for the entire House of Commons, and that he consider whether or not the redactions and exclusions were appropriate, and report back to the House accordingly. The government says, well, why don't we just bring in the Prime Minister's deputy? The deputy relies on the Prime Minister for his job and can be fired by the Prime Minister at any time. The deputy was hired by the Prime Minister, who decides on the financial bonus. The deputy, in every way, shape or form, reports directly to the Prime Minister. Of course, that is not an acceptable solution to this problem.

The same clerk, probably under some duress, though he would not admit it publicly, deprived the Ethics Commissioner of information related to the SNC scandal. That prevented the Ethics Commissioner from fully disclosing the truth in that previous scandal. We can't simply rely on the Prime Minister's personal deputy to decide what Canadians should see and what they should not see. That is not appropriate.

Rather, we're proposing that a truly independent individual—that is, the lawyer for the House of Commons, who represents all 338 of us, who represents the institution of Parliament, not the government, not the opposition, not anybody in particular, but all of us generally—review the documents and report back to us on whether or not we have received everything we're entitled to according to the motion.

If everything has been released and if all of the so-called cabinet confidences are in fact confidences, then the government should have nothing to worry about. There really wouldn't be any controversy. The law clerk would say so. He would come before the committee and say, “Well, folks, I have reviewed all these exclusions and redactions and it turns out they were all appropriate, so we don't need to pursue the matter any further.” However, for some reason the government is just terrified that the law clerk would have this kind of access.

I would point out, with respect to the law clerk, that he and his office have high-level security clearance. There is no risk that they are going to find cabinet confidences and pick up the phone and call a journalist or head to Twitter and tweet the information out online. The cabinet confidences they have in their possession, according to this motion, would be kept confidential, because the law clerk would be so ordered by this committee.

Were he to violate that edict, he would blow up his entire career and his life. He would not be able to practise law, because he would be expelled from the bar if he were to violate solicitor-client privilege. He would obviously be removed as the law clerk of the House of Commons. His life's work would be in tatters.

We don't have a risk here that the law clerk, our lawyer, is going to take these documents and dump them on the Internet or proclaim on the floor of the House of Commons. We can count on him to report back to us in a manner that is accurate but that does not reveal any confidences.

In fact, I stated earlier today not that the law clerk would take the documents and publish them, but that he would look at the documents and confirm whether or not the redactions and the exclusions were appropriate and report accordingly to this committee in testimony. This should be a very easy thing to do.

To suggest that it has never been done is completely false. Of course, during the SNC-Lavalin scandal the Prime Minister was forced to reveal some cabinet confidences because he had one of his most senior ministers alleging that, under the dome of cabinet confidentiality, he was committing grievous acts of ethical violence in that he was applying undue pressure to absolve a corporate criminal from prosecution. As a result, yes, cabinet confidences were published to the justice committee.

Furthermore, confidences that would normally be left in the hands of ministers have been shared with other branches of Parliament. We now have a committee on national security, which is able to go around the normal restrictions on confidentiality and review state secrets, with an oath that they not speak of those secrets anywhere, ever, with threat of charge. There is a second precedent for this sort of thing.

Frankly, the parliamentary tradition is that ministers can bring citizens into their confidence if they are so authorized by the Crown, represented by the Prime Minister. This would be entirely legitimate. It would be completely reasonable.

The only reason the government would resist such a compromise is that they're terrified that the law clerk is going to look at these documents and say that these are not cabinet confidences and they never were, that these are not legitimate redactions and in fact there are no legitimate redactions. The House of Commons has the right to see any document—unredacted—that it chooses, regardless of statutes related to access to information or privacy. That's not covered in parliamentary privilege.

They're worried that the law clerk is going to see this and say that they've been covering all this up, that it has nothing to do with cabinet confidence and everything to do with protecting the culpable. Then he will presumably report that to this committee. That's why the Liberals on the committee are acting so erratically.

Here we should be performing a pre-budget consultation. The Conservatives have been crying out for the need to start a pre-budget consultation, so we can get this disastrous economy back on track. Don't get us wrong; we realize that Canada's economy is the worst in the G7, with the highest unemployment, by far the highest deficit, the poorest growth prospects—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

It has the lowest death rate.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

There is more bad news today from the Bank of Canada that the governor expects—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Poilievre, we have a point of order coming in from Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I believe the member forgot to indicate, Mr. Chair, that we also have the lowest per capita death rate in the G7. He might want to rephrase his argument to make it more fulsome and complete.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I think that's a point of debate.

Go ahead, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

It's an inaccurate statement. Many developed countries have much superior results in fighting COVID than Canada.

Regardless, our economy is in the worst shape. We're dead last when it comes to jobs. We're dead last when it comes to deficits and dead last in the worst possible way, with the most unemployment and the most deficit as a share of GDP. We're getting the worst results for the highest price.

We want to get to work on that. We, as Conservatives, want to come forward in this committee and propose some solutions to heal the damage—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.