Finance Committee on May 21st, 2021

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all witnesses for being here today. Thank you so much for your important testimony.

I'm going to start with UNITE HERE first, and maybe I'll start with you, Ms. Cardona, but I really want to thank all three of you for your very passionate testimony today.

I want to start off with two clarifying statements, Ms. Cardona.

To the question of how much money the federal government was giving to the hotel, you indicated $500,000 to $1 million. I want to make sure it's clear on the record that this is what you're hearing through the grapevine, but you do not know whether that is a true amount. Can you clarify that, please?

[Elisa Cardona]

Absolutely. It is not a true statement. It is just what we have heard through the grapevine. Both the federal government and the hotel have been very tight-lipped about how much they're actually receiving on a monthly basis.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

The other thing you mentioned was that you were fired. There's a statement that I pulled up online from the hotel, and it says that no one has been fired but there have been permanent layoffs.

Would you say that that's an untrue statement, or would you say, no, you have been fired?

[Elisa Cardona]

Being permanently laid off is being fired. It's just a different way of saying it.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

It's the same thing. Thank you for that.

In terms of supports, Mr. Falk asked one of the questions I was going to ask: What supports are you currently receiving? Thanks for letting us know that you are on EI.

One of the key programs we have.... You were talking a bit about the need for more supports for women, and there's a lot of compassion for women, particularly for single women who have kids. We have introduced a national child care plan. Do you think it was a really positive addition and announcement in the federal budget 2021?

[Elisa Cardona]

I personally cannot speak of that because my children are so old now that I wouldn't be able to take advantage of it or even use it at any point.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Do you think it's good for other women who might have much younger kids? Do you think that once we put that program into place, it might be a great program for women across the country?

[Elisa Cardona]

Fair enough. It is help, but there needs to be.... It branches out in so many directions. You cannot just hit one branch and expect all the apples from the tree to fall at the same time. That is a great start, but I feel there is a place for improvement.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I really appreciate that and thank you for your testimony. With all heart, I really do hope that things are resolved between the union and the management at Pacific Gateway Hotel.

I'm going to move on to Ms. Bourbonnais-MacDonald.

You've raised a number of really great issues about wages. I don't know if you have a specific recommendation here, because I don't necessarily know if the government can step in to make sure everybody gets paid a certain amount of money. I want to know if you have a specific recommendation on that. That's one part of my question.

Second, we've made a number of investments in immigration in our budget. We know that we have a declining population and we know that we have a retiring population. I wonder to what extent you believe that some of the changes we have implemented, which provide some flexibility to allow more of the talent we need in the country, might be helpful in fulfilling the need, moving forward, regarding child care.

[Céline Bourbonnais-MacDonald]

Those are very good questions.

To the first one, the area of research that I look at for policy is grassroots in the sense that it is being made and constructed by those who are most directly impacted. We can think of early years educators. If I had a focus group that was talking about wages, what would be the message? Basically, the message from the London-Middlesex area is very much to take a grid approach, and that conversation, I believe, can be done across the country. Again, that can be part of the key principles within a national system that reflects the needs from Newfoundland to the Northwest Territories to Vancouver, so that we have, as a country, an overview of what that grid could look like, obviously depending on each province and territory's perspective.

The other side is immigration. The issue is that as a globe we're facing the same situation in countries that have very similar ways of forming and training early childhood educators. New Zealand is in exactly the same situation. Ireland is in the same situation. For us to draw from across the globe does create issues. It means that we need to have programs here to help train if we bring—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to move on.

I'd like to give two minutes to Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Julian, and then give Mr. Kelly and Ms. Koutrakis about five minutes each.

You have two minutes, Gabriel, if you could, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Côté, in your presentation, you mentioned that the government was extending support programs, such as the Canada emergency wage subsidy and the Canada emergency rent subsidy, but reducing the rates. The Canada emergency wage subsidy includes support to hire workers. However, the rates are decreasing.

Could you comment on the extension of these measures with reduced rates? Could you repeat your criticisms of the rent support and what should be changed?

[Jean-Guy Côté]

Thank you very much for the question.

To a degree, the extension is still very well received, because the pandemic is not actually over. Restrictions are still in effect, especially for non-essential businesses. You have to understand that retail is not a uniform industry. The challenges facing some sectors are greater than for others.

Flexibility will always be a challenge. We are asking for flexibility in reducing the rates rather than a mathematical calculation, as it is in the budget. Certain retail sectors or other economic sectors are experiencing problems, so it is important to keep the programs going a little longer.

In addition, we must always keep in mind that support for hiring is an excellent initiative. Nevertheless, Quebec and certain regions of Canada will have to deal with a labour shortage. There may be a shortage of employees as, with the reopening of restaurants, some restaurant employees who came to work in the retail sector will return to their first loves. Retailers will be faced with a fairly dynamic challenge as they must fill their stores and keep their businesses going.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I'm sorry. We'll have to end it there. Thank you, both.

Mr. Julian, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to come back to Ms. Travis, Ms. Cardona and Ms. Dhillon.

Ms. Dzerowicz, who's a good friend, asked a very disingenuous question about the amounts in federal subsidies that have gone to Pacific Gateway, because she knows full well that the federal government has refused categorically to release the amounts. Mr. Trudeau has been keeping those amounts secret. I wrote to the finance minister in January—January 5 actually—and have still not received a response to that.

Given that it's your taxes that paid for these subsidies that are going to the CEOs and are being, in some cases, misused, do you not believe that the government should be transparent and let Canadians know how much of the subsidies have gone to these companies so that we can compare whether there have been layoffs, whether there has been respect for the collective agreement or whether the amounts have been used for dividends and executive bonuses? Isn't that transparency important?

[Michelle Travis]

Yes, the transparency is critical to understanding who accesses the program, how much they're receiving from the program and how long they used the program. The only way we find out any information about how much is used is through public companies that have to put that information into their corporate filings.

For example, I mentioned the Sheraton Ottawa. They fired 70 out of their 85 workers. We note through a public filing that the owner pulled $500,000 from the wage subsidy program. They just eliminated the full staff. There's another hotel that they're using it for too, but still that's a lot of money for two hotels and I think the bulk of it was for this one. That's a problem. We don't know how much the owners from the Pacific Gateway pulled out of the program. We don't know how much was pulled for the Hilton Metrotown. The transparency is critical, but we also think rules and conditions on any sort of public funding are critical too.

Again, look across the border. They've been very imperfect in the way in which public money has been given out, but they have done a little bit of a better job in terms of having some transparency about how much money has been pulled out of the government. You get a sense of whether that money has actually reached workers. That's helpful to know.

Frankly, there are a lot of programs that are out there at the federal level, and we don't know which companies are tapping them, like the HASCAP program. Which companies are getting low-interest, fully backed loans from the government and how much are they getting? That's information that the public should know because the government's absorbing the risk and, again, these are employers, some of whom are eliminating their entire staff.

We're not talking about small mom-and-pops a lot of times. We're talking about wealthy investors, real estate developers and major private corporations who are very sophisticated and they're real estate owners. The hotel industry is a real estate industry and these are valuable assets. You have to have deep pockets to buy a hotel, and I think it's a little bit of a misconception to think these are just small operators.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're going to have to end it there. We're considerably over.

We'll go to Mr. Kelly, for five minutes, followed by Ms. Koutrakis.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Maybe I'll bring Ms. Dhillon back into this and get her views on some questions similar to those that were put to Ms. Cardona.

Ms. Dhillon, you said you worked for 17 years and now you are out of work. Are you on employment insurance, or do you have any support whatsoever for yourself and your family during this time of unemployment?

[Kiranjit Dhillon]

Yes, I've been working for the Pacific Gateway Hotel for 17 years, and I am on EI right now.

How long can we survive with EI? We need our jobs back, and that's why we are fighting to get our jobs back.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

The stated purpose of the wage subsidy.... It's a purpose and a goal shared, I think, by all Canadians. Certainly, it's a purpose and a goal that I share. It is to keep employees engaged with their employer during a time of shutdown due to COVID.

Is it fair to say this program has not helped you?

[Kiranjit Dhillon]

When COVID started last March, Mr. Trudeau said nobody will lose their jobs because of the pandemic. He was reassuring everybody, but now so many people like us are losing our jobs. Yes, we're getting help, with EI or whatever else. We are on EI right now.

I think the owner should make some agreements with us, so that as soon as the business is back, he can call us back.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Is your hotel shut down?

[Kiranjit Dhillon]

No

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

In the hotel business, it's one of the fortunate ones that now has quite a lucrative business in being selected as a quarantine hotel.