Evidence of meeting #58 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ted Gallivan  Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 58 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, the committee is meeting to study the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion.

Today's meeting is taking place in the hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25 of this year. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. I think we all know here that only the person speaking shows up when we're in session.

With that, we are fortunate today to have here the Minister of National Revenue, the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier. She'll have a few opening remarks for about seven minutes, I gather.

Thank you, Minister. Not all ministers give us their remarks the night before in both official languages. We appreciate that.

With the minister is Ted Gallivan, assistant commissioner, compliance programs branch, who has been here many a time. We welcome him, as well.

We will start with the minister—

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I have a point of order. I'll be really quick, Mr. Chair.

I agree with you. I do thank the minister for providing her remarks ahead of time. That was thoughtful of her to do so. I have read them. I'm sure everybody else has, as well.

I wonder if we might dispense with having them read into the record and go straight to questions.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

No, I don't believe so, Mr. Kelly. I find that the ministers do like to have an opportunity to make their statement. I think it's one of the reasons we don't get them if we take that opportunity away from them.

On this one I'm going to allow the minister to make her statement and thank her for her courtesy. It gives us, as members, time to better prepare questions.

Madam Minister.

4:05 p.m.

Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine Québec

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier LiberalMinister of National Revenue

Thank you very much.

Hello to all my colleagues.

Mr. Chair, I would like to take this opportunity, before beginning my presentation, to wish you a happy birthday.

Thank you for this invitation to provide details on the Canada Revenue Agency's strategies to combat tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.

Let me begin by saying that the Government of Canada and the CRA are firmly committed to combatting tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance on all fronts. And we are all committed to making things much more difficult for those who choose not to meet their tax obligations.

In fact, since 2016, the Government of Canada has made investments that have helped provide the CRA with better data, better methodology and, ultimately, better results.

In particular, these investments have enabled the agency to develop a strategy that promotes global data sharing. Let's face it, tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance are complex global problems.

The CRA is working with international partners through various multilateral organizations, including the Organization for Economic Co‑operation and Development, or OECD, and its forum on tax administration, the FTA. I was pleased to see that Mr. Bob Hamilton, commissioner of the CRA, was appointed chair of the FTA in August 2020.

As a result of its modern and collaborative strategy, Canada is member to 93 tax treaties and 24 international tax information exchange agreements. In fact, Canada is one of more than 70 countries that exchange information through the country‑by‑country reporting system.

In addition, Canada participates in the electronic funds transfer reporting program, which is related to international electronic funds transfers over $10,000. And with the implementation of the common reporting standard in 2016, Canada, alongside nearly 100 other jurisdictions, benefits from financial institution data that identifies financial accounts held by non-resident clients for tax purposes.

With these improved resources and tools, the CRA is now able to focus on large multinationals, high net worth networks, the underground economy, cryptocurrency and real estate transactions.

The CRA is now seeing these signs of success because of the investments made by the Government of Canada.

In recent years, the CRA has assessed the equivalent of more than $12 billion each year through audits, more than 60% of which were related to tax avoidance by large multinationals and aggressive tax planning by high net worth individuals.

And I must note that these investments have generated approximately $5 billion in additional federal tax revenue, as of March 2021.

Additionally, the CRA's criminal investigations program has enhanced its ability to investigate the most serious tax crimes. It is important to note that the agency investigates complex cases in collaboration with its partners in the Department of Finance and the Department of Justice to close what may be perceived as legal loopholes. And I must remind you that the CRA has shifted its focus to more hard-hitting investigations, which result in more jail time and higher fines.

However, we must never forget that tax evasion often involves very complex domestic and international money transfer structures, which require the CRA to complete lengthy and time-consuming intelligence gathering processes.

I also want to note that we are increasingly seeing high net worth taxpayers using the court system when they are audited in order to avoid providing documents and information to the agency. And I want to emphasize that the volume of complex litigation is up significantly from previous years, with approximately 3,000 active cases considered high level in complexity.

As a result, first announced in the 2020 fall economic statement and confirmed in budget 2021, the Government of Canada has committed to invest $606 million over five years, beginning in 2021‑22, to continue this complex work.

These investments will close the compliance gap for high net worth individuals, strengthen technical support for high-risk audits, improve the CRA's ability to identify tax evasion involving trusts, improve the CRA's ability to stop fraudulent or unjustified GST/HST refunds, and, finally, improve the criminal investigations program.

In addition to the financial investments from budget 2021 legislative changes will also be put in place to strengthen the rules on transfer pricing, oral testimony, base erosion and profit shifting, and mandatory disclosure rules.

Before I conclude, I would like to wish the chair of this committee, Mr. Wayne Easter, a very happy retirement.

I want to thank you personally for your outstanding work on behalf of Canadians. We will miss you.

Mr. Chair, I am proud to say that the Government of Canada and the CRA have shown determination and innovation in creating effective and proactive approaches to identifying those who avoid paying their fair share of taxes or who are taking steps to do so.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Madam Minister. Thank you for the comments.

It sometimes makes me wonder, with the comments I've gotten lately, that maybe a person should retire more often.

The lineup for the first round of questions is Mr. Kelly and Mr. Lawrence. They'll split the first six minutes, followed by Ms. Dzerowicz, Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Julian.

Mr. Kelly, I believe you're up first or it might be Mr. Lawrence.

Go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

It's Mr. Lawrence.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I can agree with the chair. I would certainly like to see more Liberals retire.

Thanks very much.

My question, obviously, is for the minister.

The inability to collect revenue from tax evaders—which is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $10 billion to $25 billion a year—has real consequences. Our debt now, Minister, is over a trillion dollars, the government's debt-to-GDP ratio will exceed 50% and the government has shown little, if any, ability to control spending. Despite raising taxes on many hard-working Canadians and business owners, it has shown also a very poor record of increasing revenue. In fact, it has zero record of it. No doubt that's partially due, as I mentioned, to billionaire evaders and Liberal friends avoiding taxes.

Will the minister finally come clean today and announce when the Liberals will be putting a tax on one of the few tax shelters left to middle-class Canadians—that being their homes? Otherwise, why would they be tracking the sale of principal residency, if not to eventually tax it?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, as I said, combatting tax fraud in Canada and abroad is a priority for our government. In fact, we see that budget 2021 includes numerous investments and also policy proposals that have been very well received and are based on the hard work done by CRA in this matter.

I do hope, Mr. Chair, that my colleague will vote in favour of our budget so we are able to move forward and serve Canadians well.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I just want to ask some questions. As I said, not getting income from tax evaders has consequences. I have a couple of questions that I would just like numerical responses to.

How many CERB recipients have you identified as ineligible? How many millions of dollars have you collected from fraudulent CERB benefits?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, I want to tell my colleague that before we can add up the amounts that were allocated to the Canada emergency response benefit, we have to wait for tax season to be over. We will then be able to collect the information.

However, I have to tell you that our government was very proud to be able to help Canadians at the beginning of the pandemic. I want to tell my colleague that it would have cost Canadians a lot more if our government had not stepped in.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I have to go back to Mr. Lawrence.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

I will hand it over to Mr. Kelly.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Thank you for being here, Minister. It's nice to see you again.

In 2018, the Auditor General reported that the manner in which your agency treated tax filers with offshore accounts was different from its treatment of Canadians without offshore accounts.

Is that still the case at your agency?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank my colleague for his question.

In 2013‑2014, the CRA did 43 audits relating to tax evasion. In 2019‑2020, 1,100 audits were done. We can clearly see that all the work we have done is bearing fruit.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I'm sorry, Madam Minister. That wasn't my question.

Minister, I asked you whether your agency still treats Canadians with offshore accounts differently from tax filers without offshore accounts?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, the Canada Revenue Agency treats all Canadians equitably. That is one of the CRA's principles. The clients are truly central to our concerns and we try to offer them the best service possible, that is, fair service. We make sure that everyone pays their fair share.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'll let it go back to Mr. Kelly.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Do you think it's fair for a Canadian without an offshore tax avoidance plan or offshore accounts to automatically lose a deduction if they can't produce documents within 90 days, whereas a Canadian with an offshore account is given months or years to comply with a request for information?

This is right from the Auditor General. I'm not making this up. It was three years ago that this report came out. I want to know if that's still the practice. Based on your last answer, I would really like you to comment and tell us whether you think that's fair.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Chair, our government respects the independence of the CRA. My role is not to order the CRA to undertake audits and I do not intervene in those audits.

That is really part of the CRA's process, unlike the Conservatives' approach. If my colleague wants more information about administrative matters, I can ask Mr. Gallivan, the assistant commissioner, to answer him.

June 22nd, 2021 / 4:15 p.m.

Ted Gallivan Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Thank you.

Factually, a more complex audit will take more time, and factually, when the CRA has the onus of proof, it needs to gather evidence that will withstand a challenge in court. It does take more time because we think it's in the Crown's best interest.

That's what the OAG observed. They observed, in the more complex cases, that we did allow more time to get the information, because we needed that information to collect the taxes owed.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

The Auditor General observed—

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

This is the last question, Pat. We're a little over, but that's okay.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

The Auditor General observed that this was actually unfair, that Canadians who didn't have offshore accounts were automatically denied a claim or deduction if they couldn't produce documents in 90 days.

What I would like to know is whether there has been any progress on providing more fairness to Canadian taxpayers who will automatically lose their deduction in 90 days, compared with offshore filers who can defy with impunity a request for documents from the CRA.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Do you want to take that one, Mr. Gallivan?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I would like the minister to answer that.