Finance Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2020

[Bill Bewick]

I think it's known that it's not always that hard to get premiers to agree to ask Ottawa to give them all more money. In this case, it was a unique situation. All the premiers agreed to give one province a special retroactive payment in recognition of all that Albertans had contributed to maintain the balance sheet of the country for 15 years.

To have that not at all acknowledged in Monday's announcement is very disappointing. It's a case where there was an opportunity to show recognition that Albertans have contributed so much to the federal coffers, but it wasn't taken up.

Going back to 2015, Albertans contributed $25 billion that year in taxes that went to Ottawa, versus spending that came back to Alberta. By the end of the year, though, the revenues had dropped by $8 billion. The $250 million that we got as a fiscal stabilization, a kind of insurance program for provinces to be able to maintain services when they have a sudden drop in revenues, that $250 million that came back was 1% of the $25 billion that Albertans sent to help Ottawa.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

It's absolutely staggering. These are staggering figures. Thank you for sharing that.

I'm going to leave the rest of my time for Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I will send it over to Mrs. Jansen.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to direct my question to the ALS group.

I had a round table with an ALS group of sufferers, and they were very clear that they don't have time. It looks as if the changes to the PMPRB are going to make it even more difficult for them to get the medicines they need.

Could you speak to that challenge? Will the changes to the PMPRB affect their access to the new treatment for ALS that's available?

[Tammy Moore]

We have significant concerns about what it will do in terms of access. We do believe that it is going to cause concern within the pharmaceutical companies in terms of Canada as a marketplace, which in fact will restrict access, both when we look at clinical trials and the potential to come to Canada, as well as when we look at Canada as a marketplace for the new therapies we do see coming down the pipeline.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you.

I have a quick question for Mr. Mintz.

Given how much has been deferred in terms of delayed taxes, about $124 billion, which has come out of consumers' pockets, is there any room for tax increases like the NDP wealth tax or the new proposed streaming taxes? Would you recommend holding off on CPP increases started in January, given the problems of small businesses?

[Dr. Jack Mintz]

First of all, I think that in the midst of the pandemic—and I actually have said this several times—we should not be increasing any tax at this point. I would suggest that CPP should be delayed, but also I think we should have avoided carbon tax increases and we should have avoided anything else, including—even though I support them—the GST that's going to be put on digital services. I would do that after the pandemic is finished.

With regard to your other question at the beginning, the pent-up taxes....

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

The delayed or deferred taxes.

[Dr. Jack Mintz]

Yes, the deferred taxes. I think we're going to need to think of serious tax reform. We have a serious competitiveness problem. We're losing capital to other countries. We have our Canadian companies that are investing abroad. We've had poor investment performance. We really have to worry about making sure that we get people back to jobs and that we have some growth in this economy.

With just throwing a lot of money out through spending programs, my view is that eventually they're going to need to have tax increases that are broad-based ones. A wealth tax will not raise that much money. It's a very small revenue earner. You're going to need broad-based taxes.

We have to be honest with Canadians. You're going to see a GST increase. You might see payroll taxes and other things if we try to start generating a lot of new programs that weren't affordable before COVID but now all of a sudden become affordable, which they're not.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Mr. Mintz—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have a minute left, Tamara.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Mr. Mintz, you also mentioned the PMPRB and those kinds of regulatory issues. Could you maybe speak to that as well?

[Dr. Jack Mintz]

I think we have to be concerned that we've seen this significant decline in pharmaceutical spending in Canada over the past.... I took that off the ISED website and corrected for inflation and growth in the population, and we've had a significant reduction in per capita spending.

Many of the pharmaceutical companies are really concerned about two regulatory issues, one being intellectual property and their protection of patents. I happen to know that a very large company was going to invest in Canada recently and decided not to because of that.

The price control issue is also a very significant thing. If we talk about having vaccine manufacturing capability and other things, I think it's going to be very important to make sure we are attractive for pharmaceutical company investments. We have to be careful, then, with the way we frame our policies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, all.

Ms. Dzerowicz and Mr. Fraser are splitting their time.

You have six minutes.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. Please cut me off at three minutes.

I just want to thank everyone for their very important presentations and for being here today.

I'm going to start off with Mr. Saras.

Mr. Saras, I'm going to cut you off at one minute. I apologize. It's because I have to get to two other people.

I want to particularly thank you for your presentation. In my riding of Davenport, I have at least six or seven ethnic media, and they provide information not only to new Canadians but to Canadians who've been here for decades. It's the way they get their local media, and it's also the way they actually stay in touch with their home countries in their own language.

Your top request was for $7 million. Could you please explain what the $7 million would go for?

[Thomas Saras]

There are about 900 outlets. We are going to support some of the stronger ones in order to maintain the ability of having people working with them. Right now, about 15,000 are laid off because the outlets cannot afford to keep workers working with them. There are students of the schools of journalism, and they cannot work anymore. This is the worst part, because someone is going to finish journalism school—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I'm so sorry, Mr. Saras. Thank you so much for that. I will read your brief, but know that your recommendations are very important.

My next question is to 4 Pillars, with Mr. Rocha.

Mr. Rocha, you've made a very powerful presentation. What is your top recommendation for supporting Canadians at this time when we are coming out of this pandemic and expecting bankruptcies to go up? Regulatory change or legislative change may take a long time. What would be the one thing that we could do that would be helpful to Canadians?

[Reg Rocha]

From our point of view, debtors need to be fairly represented. We need to have, ideally, parliamentarians get involved to help represent the constituents, but more importantly, for the players in the insolvency industry to work together collectively. Right now, it's creditor-driven, as I mentioned in my brief. I think that debtors need more representation. Have people who work with debtors accepted.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

My last question is for Mr. Mintz, very quickly in the 15 seconds I have.

Mr. Mintz, do you believe that we should be eliminating interprovincial trade barriers to allow for the free movement of people and goods?

[Dr. Jack Mintz]

We have something in the Constitution—section 121—which was intended to try to remove trade barriers. I think we should, but we also have to remember that the federal government itself has some regional policies that interfere with free trade.

If you look at the European Union rules on permanent establishment, etc., some of those things the federal government is doing—never mind the provinces—would never be done in Europe.

Yes, I think the federal government should try to do more.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

Mr. Fraser, go ahead.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

In the limited time, I will jump into questions. I do hope to get to two witnesses, so I ask that you keep your answers tight, if possible.

My first question is for the ALS Society. When it comes to ALS in the public narrative, I find there's a lot of focus on how difficult the illness can be for people who live with it and their families. I want to draw attention to the quality of life that people who live with it have. I lost an uncle to ALS in September. His name was Leo Duggan. He was the most interesting guy you will ever meet, and a terrific volleyball coach. He organized the Terry Fox Run in Upper South River, and he worked the horse barns in Sherbrooke Village for years. He was terrific guy and made a world of difference.

In addition to the asks you outlined in your presentation, when I talk to your local chapters, one thing is the importance of supporting the ordinary needs to help people be comfortable in their homes, and the attention—or the lack of attention—that their families give. I'm sure my Aunt Janet, for example, who was an absolute saint, could have used additional support.

Are there things that we can do to help improve the quality of life for people who continue to live with ALS and the people who take care of them?

[Tammy Moore]

Absolutely, there's much that can be done. The societies across the country are helping to fill the gaps in the health care system in each province, because it can vary vastly from province to province in terms of the needs. In some provinces, our societies are actually providing very basic things like hospital beds, wheelchairs and ceiling lifts, so people can stay in their home safely. This has been even more critical during this time of COVID—being able to make sure that people and their caregivers are safe.

A lot also needs to be done in terms of personal support workers. Mr. Fraser, just as you have mentioned what your aunt is doing, that kind of support is necessary. There's a great deal that we need to be thinking about when it comes to the overall health care system. That's only going to intensify now as we are seeing therapies starting to come to market and what that could mean for our population.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you.

That's a perfect segue on the basis of care workers. I have a question for Ms. Higgins.

Thank you so much for your articulate testimony. I want to ask you a quick question about investments in early learning and child care across Canada. One of the chief complaints that opponents of investments of this nature have is the immense cost. There is no question that it is expensive to establish a proper national early learning and child care system.

In your view, and in the experience of jurisdictions that have implemented such a system, have you actually found that the increased revenue for more women taking part in the workforce, which you refer to in your testimony, is sufficient to cover the cost of that upfront investment?