Finance Committee on Oct. 13th, 2023

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Would you say there's some kind of force at play inside of DFO that's preventing the proper science and the results that are plainly there in front of the eyes of those who basically live on the water?

[Courtney Glode]

Yes. I think there's a disconnect between Ottawa and the reality here in Newfoundland and Labrador. I think the new minister in DFO has shown more of a willingness to work with our members and to recognize the economic benefits that come from important fish like mackerel. We have seen a trend in recent years that environmental dogma is getting priority over true science, true facts and the economic needs of our communities.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Does the federal government fund groups like Oceans North and Oceania directly?

[Courtney Glode]

I don't know if it funds them directly, but I think they do receive some funding for certain initiatives.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Small.

Now we'll hear from MP Thompson.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I'm so pleased to welcome everyone here to St. John's, to this piece of Newfoundland and Labrador in particular. I am really grateful for this opportunity for us to be able to understand in a very specific way the concerns of so many important organizations and certainly municipalities and groups within the province. I'm pleased to have my colleague with me, and we'll split our time as we move through the morning.

I would like to start with you, Ms. Walsh, with the municipalities. Thank you for your opening statement.

You know we really are in a unique place in this province, certainly from my perspective. Even in this riding, I have municipalities and their needs are very different from what I see in the centre of the city. The reality is that the population is very low and the province is quite large. How do we continue to balance the needs of communities with existing populations? Understanding the demographics of the population as well, how do we continue to encourage development? I think we have tremendous opportunities going forward in terms of economic development in our communities. How do we support the movement, particularly of newcomers, to this place, into rural parts of the province? How do we support housing initiatives so that municipalities are really able to take a lead in terms of housing in response to our housing needs? Then, ultimately, how do we work across all government sectors—obviously the provincial government is a critical part of this conversation—as we continue to move into the realities of the 21st century?

I agree that infrastructure is significant. The climate crisis is real, and we have to prepare for what are now common occurrences of extreme weather events. How do we manage all of these things while at the same time continuing to understand that rural Newfoundland and Labrador is integral to our future as a prosperous province?

[Dr. Deatra Walsh]

I think I could write a Ph.D. thesis on that. I have—close to that one. Thank you for that. Those are great comments, and that's really complex.

I will answer partially as a sociologist, I guess, but I'll also zero in on the municipal perspective.

I've always said in my Ph.D. work that we have to support people in place, but that's expensive. I don't mean to reduce it to that, but it is difficult in a population with our geography. It is challenging to deliver services across this geography. At the same time, as you say, it's a balance. How do we support rural areas in meaningful ways? We have to do this all together.

You made the point about orders of government collaborating. Now more than ever, that is absolutely essential. We do have some.... I witnessed jurisdictional-type discussions, and that's fair. That happens in politics and in bureaucracies. However, we don't have any more time to waste on some of these key issues, such as climate change and all of these pieces. I'm going to come to housing in just a second.

Of course, as you well know—I know that some of you have been in municipal leadership, such as MP Duncan—as the order of government closest to the people, municipalities lack the resources and the power, in many instances, to make meaningful change for a variety of reasons. They've been said to be creatures of the province. There are funding arrangements coming from various spaces. Obviously, I've talked about how we can improve some of those things, but with respect to the issues of housing, supporting development and ensuring that newcomers can go to rural areas in our province and elsewhere, this is a moment when we definitely have to work together.

I'd like to extrapolate a little bit on the housing issue. We haven't really had to grapple with housing here in Newfoundland and Labrador in the same way as the rest of the country has. We've been embedded in a discourse of decline for so long. We've been worried about people leaving. We haven't been managing, I would say, housing insecurity, so this is a change now. It's a change for all of us to try to grapple with, but again, this offers us an opportunity—it really does—to work together.

The housing accelerator fund.... I want to commend the folks at CMHC for doing some hard work with our municipalities in working together on some of those key items—even though, as I said, the application process totally misses the mark for small communities. However, that funding stream does offer us an opportunity to try to work together to understand what those legislative and policy bumps are. Some of them are at the municipal level. Some of them are at the provincial level. Some of them are at the federal level.

Can we interrogate that funding program in a meaningful way for Newfoundland and Labrador so that we can actually get houses in the municipality of Gander? Right now, Gander is in a crisis situation with regard to housing. It has applied for half; I'm not sure if it has gotten it. It has some tremendous staff working on it. We need to get this happening here. I made the comment that it's not just a crisis in St. John's. St. John's is a holding point, as you well know, for people from all over the province, so we really have to manage that in new ways with wraparound supports, mental health services, etc.

I know, MP Thompson, that you know all about what I'm talking about here.

This is a moment for us to really look at that. I'd like to tip my hat to the work that Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador is doing with Choices for Youth. We are doing a significant piece of research, so we have to go back to evidence. It's simply important. We have a gap in the research here on housing and homelessness. Hope Jamieson, with Choices for Youth, is the lead on this piece of research that we're doing, which is looking at all of those levers, identifying those problem points and telling us about what we all need to do at which level. As I said, I think we can do it; I'm an optimist.

Thank you. I hope I answered your question.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

You did. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Walsh.

Thank you, MP Thompson.

Now we'll go to MP Ste-Marie, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to you all. I'll be speaking French, so please take a moment to get yourselves set up. Meanwhile, I'd like to thank the interpreters, who are doing an excellent job. I also want to say hello to my fellow members who are joining us today.

I want to thank all five witnesses. We don't have time to ask each of you all the questions we'd like, but know that we are taking notes and will bring your concerns to Parliament. You've given us a good overview of the challenges. I'm delighted to be with you today.

My first question is for Ms. Glode.

The government pledged to reform employment insurance, or EI, in 2015, and year after year, the reforms were put off. The government then promised that it would definitely follow through in the summer of 2022. In the summer of 2022, the government said that it would happen in the fall of 2022. Nothing has happened so far.

Obviously, the system is broken. Only four out of 10 people who lose their jobs qualify for EI. The system is broken, and reforms are needed to fix it. Could you please review the reasons why the reforms are so important for the province and workers here?

Could you also comment on the seasonal gap, if you wouldn't mind? Is the pilot project in place fixing the problem? Where do things stand?

[Courtney Glode]

The pilot project would go a long way toward helping people right now, but what we're faced with in the current EI crisis.... A lot of people don't realize that here in Newfoundland and Labrador fish harvesters have a completely separate EI program from other seasonal workers. It is a very convoluted and confusing process for a lot of people. It's also very convoluted and confusing for people who actually work in EI. We experienced that this year when the information we received, even from Service Canada, wasn't accurate and people were not able to apply for benefits.

The biggest problem that happened this year was the change in the unemployment rate. That was unexpected and it came at the end of the fishing season. When fishing seasons were already clewed up, people had the expectation, as they've had in all previous years, that they would need a certain number of weeks and a certain amount of income to qualify for their regular benefits. Since this change came at the end of the season, people had no ability to get those extra weeks. They had no ability to get that extra income.

As MP Small said, we didn't get the increase in cod this year. The cod season was closed in less than one week and a lot of people weren't even able to land any product.

It's a multi-faceted problem. We participated in the EI reform discussions, but I think the biggest thing is making the EI system responsive in a timely manner. It's been over two months since that EI rate changed. The longer we wait for a solution, the more convoluted the problem becomes because people have already applied for EI and people are waiting to apply for EI. How are we going to find a solution that helps these people? We understand it's not as easy as clicking a button and giving these people access to funds. I think the government needs to make it a priority to find out how we can do this in the future so that people are not left with no income in a really difficult time.

I hope that answers the question.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Yes, absolutely. I really appreciate your answer. Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Callahan.

Here again, there are a lot of important considerations. The new horizons for seniors program is basically open one week in the summer, when people tend to be on vacation. It involves considerable red tape. That has to change so that seniors can benefit from these initiatives.

I'd like to discuss two things.

The first is reforming the tax rules for seniors who decide to go back to work one or two days a week. We hear a lot from organizations like yours that, because of federal tax rules, seniors' benefits are clawed back when they go back to work. The government gains nothing, and the rules deter seniors who want to from going back to work when they can.

The second thing I'd like you to comment on relates to seniors who can't work. We are glad the government increased old age security benefits, but it did so only for those aged 75 and over. Seniors between the ages of 65 and 74 were left out in the cold.

What do you have to say about that?

[Sharron Callahan]

The organizations I've been involved with have been lobbying to also make sure that this additional cohort of our citizens is included in that increase. That lobbying action will continue. A lot of people retire long before the age of 65 or move into some kind of a lesser work cycle. As a result of that, those who aren't able to or who can't go back to work really need that additional source of income.

The top-up for old age security at age 65 would certainly be a help. I mean, anything is always a help.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

Now we will go to MP Cannings for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. It's wonderful to be back in Newfoundland after a bit of an absence.

I'll start with Dr. Whitaker. It's good to have someone from Memorial. I was doing my master's at Memorial when I lived here in the seventies.

You mentioned scholarships and fellowships, and I'll focus on that. When I was here at Memorial in the seventies, I had an NRC scholarship. It was very much enough to live comfortably on. That amount went up until 2003 and then it stopped. It has remained static. We now have the best and brightest of our country living in poverty. They are living below the poverty line. Master's students have to live on $17,000 a year. They have to pay their tuition out of that, and tuition has gone way up.

I talked to Dr. Bouchard about this. There's been a big campaign around this for the last two years. Nothing has happened. It seemed to be very low-hanging fruit for the government to keep science and research thriving in Canada, and yet we've had no action at all.

I'm wondering if you could really dive into that. I think it's only part of the problem, but it's an easy part to fix, I think.

[Dr. Robin Whitaker]

Thank you for that question.

I think you're right. We're talking about the foundation there. It's interesting to me that so many of the other speakers identified the need for research and science. That can't happen unless people are trained and educated in public post-secondary education. I'm a Newfoundlander, and I wouldn't be where I am now without Memorial University. I know the same is true for Deatra. These things are crucial.

As you say, the scholarships and fellowships for graduate students have not increased in about two decades. That's roughly the time when I started teaching, actually, as a new professor. My new undergraduates, when I was starting, suddenly had what was quite a lot of money after many years of frozen fellowships. I was on the earlier regime, so I was a little envious of my new students.

It makes a huge difference in all kinds of ways. There are equity issues, as we know. Members of equity-deserving groups are less likely to have other sources of funding. If we want to get them in through the pipeline, we need to provide that support to allow them to focus on their studies while they have those years earmarked for that. My own graduate students find themselves now having to work. It extends the time of their degrees and often results in long-term precarity.

I think this is basic to improving our capacity across the country. We're losing talent as a result of this situation. It's to the benefit of the entire country. It connects to all of the other issues that we've heard about today relating to affordability, housing and so forth. As I mentioned in my remarks, any dollar that goes into education is an enormously powerful economic multiplier. It pays back. It's also a vital equalizer. It helps reduce inequality right at the source and over the long term.

Just to speak to some of Sharron's concerns, of course we need public post-secondary education to train those health care professionals that she was talking about, but education is also a vital social determinant of health. This is low-hanging fruit, as you say, but it is something that will pay dividends if it is addressed in a timely way.

Thank you.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to quickly turn to you again, Ms. Glode, because your summary stole my question on EI. As a former scientist, a biologist, in my previous life, I basically worked on projects that involved monitoring wildlife populations across the country, so I'm all in favour of that.

I'll instead go into something you didn't mention. You did say you were concerned about the smaller owner-operators. I'm just wondering about the CEBA loan situation here. We've heard a lot about how most of the people who have taken out those CEBA loans can't afford to pay them back. I'm just wondering if you could speak to that request for an extension to 2024.

[Courtney Glode]

Thank you.

That's a very good point. A large number of our owner-operator enterprises do have CEBA loans. These individuals were very disappointed with the recent announcement by the federal government, which provided only a few weeks' extension on the loan repayment. These enterprise owners are facing the worst economic year they have experienced, probably, since the cod moratorium, to be frank. Many enterprises haven't made it through this year. Others are hanging on by a thread and may not make it through a few more years.

Giving forgiveness on the CEBA loan or extending the forgiveness period is extremely important to our members, and eliminating the interest on that is also very important to our members.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Cannings.

Members, we're moving into our second round. The timings are a little different on this round.

We are starting with MP Duncan for five minutes.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to everybody. Thank you for being here. In the comments, I think there have been a lot of good feedback and statistics that will be helpful for the finance committee to provide a context for where the country's at.

I want to focus my round on the cost of living, and particularly the carbon tax.

Mr. Warren, my family comes from a trucking background. My father owned a trucking company that was about the same size for 30-some years. He retired just last year.

I want to see if you can help us eliminate this perception that the carbon tax being imposed does not affect grocery prices, that it doesn't add to the cost of groceries. You gave some numbers about the cost of doing a run and the fuel surcharge and what's being added to it. You talked about the tight margins you already had before the carbon tax came in. Can you give us a backgrounder and debunk the myth that whenever a carbon tax is being charged, that is not being passed on to the consumer by adding to the cost of trucking and adding to the price of groceries?

[Barry Warren]

That's a fantastic question.

The reality is that any type of tax affects every one of us here today. There are none excepted.

I just gave you an idea, an example. I'm saying $10,000. I figure from my understanding of a truck load, a freezer load of freight coming out of Ontario into Newfoundland, that it would be somewhere around $14,000 or $12,000, so I take the figure of $10,000. Because of the pricing model, there's a fuel surcharge that's added. With the increase in the price of fuel, that fuel surcharge goes up and down. Right now, today, it's 80.1%. If it's a $10,000 bill, it's now $18,100, if my math is correct.

You guys had the wholesalers in, and that's the price they pay. Then they sit down and they do their profit margins, and then the consumers—me and you—come in off the street and that's what we're paying for.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

The point is that the worst is yet to come. The carbon tax is just starting now, whereas in the coming years it's going to triple to 61¢ a litre on the price of fuel. Again, it's going to add to it.

Looking at your costs, where you are in the quiet month of September, against the other parts of the year, I'm guessing it would be about a quarter of a million dollars to $300,000 per year added cost for your trucking business. That can go upwards. If we are talking about it being tripled, it could be nearly three quarters of a million dollars a year being passed on into goods and shipping here for the province. Is that correct?

[Barry Warren]

Well, it causes me concern, not only because I'm getting it on the back end from my employees because of the issues they're facing, but also because I'm looking at the contracts and I'm looking at my business and saying, “Where do we go from here?” I feel as though my hands are tied. There are things happening that I have no control over, and more so in operating here in Newfoundland because in the trucking business, if it doesn't move by truck, it just doesn't move. That's the reality.

The reality for everybody is that when they go to the grocery store, the costs have increased and we've just added to the problem with this carbon tax on top of the other taxes that are there.

That's my general point with this.