Finance Committee on Nov. 13th, 2023

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for visiting us in Quebec's national capital.

Let's talk about airport infrastructure. We obviously have it in the regions. There is an airport in Quebec City. There are small airports as well.

You are requesting assistance in maintaining that infrastructure. In concrete terms, what needs do you see on the horizon at Quebec City's airport? How is management doing there?

[Mathieu Lavigne]

Yes, we are requesting assistance for the airport sector in two different ways. Quebec City's airport is a good example because it could be considered a regional airport or a large airport, depending on one's point of view.

There are two things to point out.

First, let's talk about the federal government's responsibilities with regard to airport infrastructure. In Canada, that infrastructure, in many cases, suffers from a major lack of maintenance and equipment modernization. There absolutely has to be more investment in that infrastructure. It's important for our ability to welcome visitors and for business tourism. We really need to expand the capacity of airport terminals. That's the federal government's responsibility.

Second, costs for air carriers in Canada are particularly high, which definitely limits development of regional, national and international connections.

Consequently, the government can and should take action on these two points to make our airports more competitive. We aren't leaders in this area compared to other G7 countries.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We were talking about the Canada emergency business account, the CEBA. Bloc Québécois members have been asking the government a lot of questions on this in the past few weeks. I think there's unanimous support for your proposal in the business world, particularly among affected SMEs.

Tell me about the role that SMEs play in the overall economy of Quebec and Canada. What is their economic weight? Tell me how far we should go to keep them alive. Many of them are in trouble right now as a result of the repayment.

[Mathieu Lavigne]

Most of the Quebec economy consists of SMEs, even in the manufacturing sector, although it's often associated with large businesses. All Quebec sectors consist mostly of SMEs.

That's especially important from a regional economic development standpoint. You know that, since as an MP you represent Charlevoix, among other areas. SMEs essentially form the economic core of our communities in the regions outside the major centres.

Looking at the situation from a broader perspective, when you think of businesses that may be weakened by the obligation to repay the CEBA loan, you may immediately think only of certain businesses that are often viewed as less successful. However, when you look at the actual cases of communities in certain regions or neighbourhoods, you see that those businesses are pillars of their community. They are the businesses that are being undermined by being asked to repay these amounts at this time.

The impact is very real for many people in many communities. That's why we would like to see a one-year delay, even though we're aware that repayment can't be postponed indefinitely and that a contract has to be complied with. You have to consider the situation people are experiencing in many regions.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you for your very informative answer.

I'd like to discuss employment insurance. I'm going to ask Mr. Lavigne, Mr. Milliard and Mr. Lapointe for their opinions.

When we discuss employment insurance, we make a connection with the regions and SMEs. Once again, these are the same people dealing with the same issues. SMEs often need better labour retention tools, and the tools at their disposal include employment insurance. Often poorly understood by decision-makers, employment insurance is a tool for attracting and retaining labour in the regions, in addition to helping to retain employee competencies and loyalty in their business. All of that applies to SMEs, which are also experiencing these issues.

My question is for Mr. Lapointe first. Should an employment insurance reform take into consideration the specific reality of the regions?

[Benoit Lapointe]

Yes. We are nevertheless requesting a single threshold because there are needs in the regions that may be or seem to be greater but that are due to the current situation, whether that includes seasonal, climate or other types of factors.

It's often forgotten that, when the new season starts, employers in seasonal industries don't want to start training people up from zero all over again without even knowing if they'll be staying with them for a long time. They never know if new employees will like their new jobs. They need to know that the people who worked through previous seasons and who are already well trained can come back and be functional on day one. For that to happen, employment insurance has to be there to help them through the season without work.

A single rule could be changed in this regard. Currently, if, between two periods of seasonal work, a person tries another non-seasonal job and then resigns to return to his or her seasonal employment—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I apologize for interrupting, but I only have a few seconds left, and I would also like to hear the opinion of the representatives of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec.

[Charles Milliard]

Some serious soul-searching has to be done on unemployment insurance, and the program must be reviewed. During the pandemic, employment insurance was a critical support and wealth redistribution tool. I'm not judging it, but now we need to reframe employment insurance to a certain degree. I think we have a say in this because it's funded by workers and employers.

If the decision is made that it's a bigger redistribution and support plan, that's all well and good, but we'll have to see how the government participates in it. The employment insurance fund isn't a captivating topic, but since we have an actuarial deficit of $34 billion, it's important that we address the problem so the plan survives in good health.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Desbiens.

Now we'll go to MP Boulerice, please, for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for welcoming me as part of the pre-budget consultations held by the Standing Committee on Finance.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

For starters, I'd like to go to Ms. Corcoran, who is the executive director of the Canadian Worker Co‑op Federation.

My political party and I are very much in favour of the co‑operative model. We often have a vision of society that is either completely private or completely public or governmental, whereas there's really quite a variation between the two.

Whether it's housing co‑operatives or worker co‑operatives, I think it's a good model. And you're right in saying that it produces businesses that are deeply rooted, that are local and that have a high survival rate.

Earlier you mentioned the succession problem. For example, if an entrepreneur decides to sell his business, there aren't a lot of models under which his employees would be granted a benefit enabling them to purchase the business and turn it into a worker co‑operative. However, that would be a good model. There are examples of legislative measures in the United States and Great Britain that would be helpful in that regard.

Where do we stand in Canada? What measures would you like to see introduced to enable employees, workers, to purchase the business of an individual who is retiring or whose children don't want to take over?

[Hazel Corcoran]

Thank you very much for that excellent question.

We can look at the models that are used in other countries, such as France and Argentina, where there are more worker co‑operatives. I think tax incentives are a big help. Technical support programs may also play a role.

However, you have to understand that there are various models for the whole idea of employee ownership that we're discussing, not just one.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

So you think it's worth it to give the French and Argentinian models a closer look.

[Hazel Corcoran]

Yes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's great.

Mr. Lapointe, the employment insurance system has been broken for many years. Most of the people who contribute to it don't have access to benefits, which is quite absurd in itself. According to the latest figures I've seen, I believe that roughly 38% of people who lose their jobs aren't entitled to benefits.

To increase accessibility, you're proposing a single threshold of 350 hours or 13 weeks. It's important to provide both options because there has to be that flexibility. You would also like the benefit rate to increase from 55% to 70%.

Governing means making choices. If you ever had to choose between increasing accessibility and increasing the benefit rate, what would be your priority?

[Benoit Lapointe]

We would choose accessibility; that's obvious.

You mustn't forget that most vulnerable workers really are vulnerable workers. However, gender equality is one of Canada's values. We shouldn't forget either that immigrants and people from racialized communities often occupy more insecure jobs.

A more accessible plan would create greater social justice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Lapointe, we're still eagerly awaiting, as I'm sure you are too, the major employment insurance reform announced by the government several years ago.

I would like to hear you discuss self-employed workers, a subject that you haven't raised. These workers are both employers and employees and contribute in neither capacity. They are completely excluded from the plan, whereas they represent a growing segment of the labour market in Quebec and elsewhere across Canada.

What do you think we should do about self-employed workers within this framework?

[Benoit Lapointe]

We should definitely start a discussion about how to include them. It's always a delicate topic. My impression is that not all self-employed workers want to join the employment insurance plan. However, there must be a way to do it.

It may become more attractive for those individuals to join once the plan has been reformed and is more accessible. Self-employed workers may have the impression that, even if they contribute, they would never be able to receive benefits from the plan under the present rules.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

In some instances, they don't want to be compelled to pay both the employer and employee contributions because they wind up at a disadvantage.

[Benoit Lapointe]

Yes, that's the situation in which self-employed workers find themselves.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Milliard, you raised the transportation issue. You touched on a topic that's very important to me: rail transportation. I use that means of transportation frequently.

You briefly mentioned high-frequency and high-speed trains. I'm going to ask you a question similar to the one I put to Mr. Lapointe. If you ever had to choose, would you prefer frequency or speed?

[Charles Milliard]

I would prefer that somebody do something quickly; that's for sure.

Having said that, I'm sensitive to the argument that we're the only G7 country that doesn't have a high-speed train, although that's not the fashion in the United States either. We would be in favour of a high-speed train, but I think a high-frequency train would be a very promising project for the Quebec City-Toronto corridor.

Once again, what's important is the predictability of that project. If we seriously believe in it, we can't go from committee to committee and question period to question period without setting money aside for that project. I'm not suggesting the government isn't serious. On the contrary, many studies have been conducted and many clear commitments made. However, this project should be transpartisan and apolitical. That may be just another dream that I'm having. Historically speaking, the birth of Canada sprang from the idea of that east to west railway. However, 156 years later, we find ourselves having to renew that project. It's high time we invested in it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

That is the end of our first round.

We will go to our second round of questions. The timing is a bit different. We are starting with the Conservatives and MP Lawrence for five minutes.

For the witnesses and those who are here, MP Lawrence is a permanent member on the committee, as am I. What's great about being able to travel the country is that we have members who are local. They are able to bring a local flavour to our witnesses and get that testimony.

MP Lawrence, go ahead, please.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I must say you are looking bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. We both got delayed on our flights and arrived at the hotel at 1 a.m. last night. Good on you.

I'm going to take this opportunity to address Ms. Proulx, because as timing worked out, I think I have the last five minutes. I appreciate all of you for coming here.

It's a great pleasure for me to speak with you.

Ms. Proulx, thank you. We're going to need you and your members. We're coming through a pretty dark time with respect to the Canadian economy. Our productivity is among the worst in the OECD. Capital investment, as you pointed out, is the second lowest.

I'm going to give you the floor for more time to perhaps talk a bit about amortization and the elimination of red tape. What can we do to help you? We desperately need you and your members in the province of Quebec and manufacturers to lead the way to get us out of this economic quagmire we're in.

[Véronique Proulx]

Thank you for the question and the time. I'll start with ACCA.

I'm talking here about the measure for accelerated amortization.

It has done its job in past years. Companies have been investing. The idea of that fiscal measure is to incentivize companies to invest now.

Considering how the economy is going with inflation and the concerns that manufacturers have in Quebec and across Canada, a lot of investment products are being delayed or cancelled. If you want to stimulate the economy, this is a good measure to put in place. It has to be announced and extended so that companies have predictability. I'll go back to what Charles said earlier. Predictability in the programs, funding and tax incentives is crucial if we want to incentivize manufacturers to invest.