Finance Committee on Nov. 13th, 2023

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you very much.

First, I'd like to speak on behalf of the committee of which I am an active member, the Standing Committee on the Environment. We've just started a study on the federal freshwater policy. Given your comments, I would encourage you to submit a brief focusing on the investment municipalities need for their water infrastructure, particularly in relation to water treatment plants, sewers and so on. I urge you to do so, by the way.

Do you agree with Mr. Poilievre's Bill C‑356?

[Guillaume Tremblay]

You have to understand one thing, which is that cities have responsibilities and jurisdictions. So we mustn't start interfering in the municipal realm.

Having said that, I think the bill needs some improvements, which we can certainly address.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Do you prefer the housing accelerator fund?

[Guillaume Tremblay]

I understand that you're from two different parties, but I'm not going to get into politics here.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

We'll let it go, then. We're not going to drag you into our battle.

Thank you for your answer.

Mr. Simard, I found your presentation extremely interesting. If I understand correctly, you're telling us that your investments are not eligible for the clean technology investment tax credit. So you'd like to see the criteria broadened.

Is that correct?

[Jean Simard]

Yes, that's right. Currently, investments in the aluminum sector are not included in this program.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Basically, an investment in clean technology is an investment in clean technology.

[Jean Simard]

My understanding of the decryption of the information we have is that the government will clarify the situation on the application of these tax measures in the coming months. It will then establish when these legislative measures will come into force. That's the first thing.

Given that we were eligible for the strategic innovation fund, the SIF, we feel that we were not taken into account in developing the parameters of the clean technology investment tax credit. The problem we're facing now is that there are no more funds in the SIF.

The government has to review the program parameters, and that will roll out disruptive technology like that.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

If I understand correctly, either the tax credit criteria should be expanded, or the strategic innovation fund, or SIF, should be topped up.

[Jean Simard]

If we want it topped up, there are procedures to follow.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In your opinion, it would take too long. I understand. That's a very good point.

You talked about China, which doesn't produce environmentally friendly aluminum. You also talked about another country, but I don't know—

[Jean Simard]

India is another example.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes, that's right.

So, I take it you're in favour of charging fees as a penalty for importing products from countries with lower environmental standards.

[Jean Simard]

If you're referring to what we call border carbon adjustments—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes, that's right.

[Jean Simard]

Like what has come into force in Europe and what the Americans are considering in their trade with Europe, the Global Arrangement on Sustainable Steel and Aluminum, we're certainly very much in favour of that.

Our competitors, where we export 90% of our metal, to the United States, are India, which produces aluminum from coal, the Middle East, which produces it using natural gas, and China, which produces it from coal.

On our end, we emit 2 tonnes of CO₂ equivalent per tonne of aluminum, while China and India emit 18 to 20 tonnes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That's quite fascinating. You've just enriched the debate on the issue.

My next question is for the Association des professionnels de la construction et de l'habitation du Québec, and it's about the lack of available housing for new households. I wasn't aware that Quebec's home ownership rate was lower than the Canadian average. That's very interesting. However, you didn't address the issue of professional orders.

Do the rules and regulations of professional orders limit the supply of professionals? Is that an issue?

As a stakeholder, are you in contact with them to see if there's anything they can do to supply more labour for housing construction?

[Paul Cardinal]

That's a very good question because, like other sectors, the construction industry is experiencing a labour shortage. However, things are a little more severe in the construction industry.

We know that Quebec's construction industry has a particular set of labour market regulations. They're more rigid than in other provinces. We're working closely with the provincial government to have them make the rules a little more flexible, especially in the two areas we're working on, versatility and labour mobility to enhance productivity in the construction industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

Now we'll go to MP Desbiens, please, for six minutes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

I'd like to welcome the witnesses to Quebec's beautiful national capital.

I'm going to address Mr. Tremblay from the Union des municipalités du Quebec.

The flexibility of federal programs and their coordination with Quebec programs in terms of cash transfers are crucial factors in your work on the ground, where you are the first responders.

When disasters occur, like what happened in Baie‑Saint‑Paul last summer, and municipalities are left waiting for a response to their requests under climate change adaptation programs, what can be most useful to them?

[Guillaume Tremblay]

Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a long time for the two levels of government to agree. We can feel that on the ground.

You're right about the climate change adaptation programs. It brings to mind what happened in Baie‑Saint‑Paul, or the eroding shoreline in the Magdalen Islands, for example. It takes a long time for governments to reach an agreement and unfortunately, at the end of the day, that affects people.

I want to go back to what I was saying about the gas tax fund and Quebec's contribution, or TECQ. It's important to understand that municipalities need predictability in order to issue calls for tenders. For 2024, so next summer, we don't even know yet how much money we will have, and we will be issuing calls for tenders even though there is a labour shortage. At the end of the day, who is going to end up paying dearly? All the people are, through the subsidies that Quebec and Canada have not yet agreed upon.

We're asking that everyone lend a hand as quickly as possible, because, at the end of the day, the people are paying the price.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

I would urge the members from the Conservative Party to spend more time working on their committees than filibustering. That way, we can get things done.

Mr. Viau, I'd like to talk to you about reconciling the cost of climate change with the investments still being made in the oil and gas industry.

Are you satisfied with all that? Is there a lot left to do?

[Marc-André Viau]

We still have a lot of things to get done. Over $30 billion has gone into the Trans Mountain pipeline. Billions of dollars are also being used to fund the decarbonization of the oil and gas sector through carbon capture and storage. In our opinion, this is a subsidy in disguise that allows oil and gas development to continue. Permits are still being issued for oil and gas exploration in marine refuges, for example. There is a definite gap between the rhetoric and the reality.

Nevertheless, I want to make it clear that we're absolutely not insensitive to the realities of resource-rich regions, to the economic realities of the workers who live in those regions and to the fact that economies depend on that. Things need to be done, including passing a bill on sustainable jobs. I feel we should no longer be allowed to talk about a just transition. The transition will certainly take time, but we have to get through it.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Given that we don't have much time, what would you suggest to this committee today? Should we stop investing in fossil fuels? Should we focus more on renewable energy? There is a cost of adapting to climate change, but if the climate doesn't change as much, that will lower the costs.

In your opinion, what are the priorities?

[Marc-André Viau]

I would recommend creating more eco-taxes and binding regulations. I know that's often not what industries want to hear, but it's what's needed to achieve a gradual decrease in the funding we provide. There aren't a lot of solutions.

You're right, the longer we maintain a carbon-based economy, the greater the costs associated with it will be. We need to address that reality.