Finance Committee on Nov. 13th, 2023

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much.

For the Union des municipalités du Québec, shoreline erosion is a major issue. What we're hearing on Île d'Orléans, Isle-aux-Coudres, the Magdalen Islands and everywhere else is that the program is out of touch with the realities of the owners, municipal and private alike.

What would you suggest in terms of support programs for infrastructure and shoreline erosion?

[Samuel Roy]

Generally speaking, we have to give the municipalities as much flexibility as possible so that they can make investments based on their priorities. As you mentioned, shoreline erosion is a problem in eastern Quebec in particular. Other regions of Quebec are experiencing other issues related to adapting to climate change. Flexibility is needed to be able to invest based on municipal priorities. That's really the key message we want to convey.

I would add to that a significant increase in funding. A first step has been taken in the past year in terms of adaptation, but we're still a long way away. Municipalities estimate that they need an additional $2 billion per year to adapt their infrastructure. They can't bear that financial burden on their own.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It's not enough to announce it. We have to make it accessible, and quickly.

Is that correct?

[Samuel Roy]

That's correct.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mrs. Desbiens.

Now we'll go to MP Boulerice, please.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I'm going to ask you to bear with me, because I'm going to have to leave a little before the end of the meeting. It's not that I'm not interested; it's because VIA Rail doesn't have enough departures.

Mr. Tremblay, on the subject of transportation, Mr. Viau talked about the value of renewing the $750 million in operating costs for public transit. I imagine you agree with that.

Should we also consider having a more sustainable solution to the operating costs of transportation companies, which are in crisis at the moment?

[Guillaume Tremblay]

I always work in teams, and that's more or less the message you also want to convey.

Cities do have to take some responsibility, but the provincial government and the federal government should think about contributing something. Every time a transit line gets cancelled, there are fewer people on buses or trains. Cities are unable to deal with that reality.

You can understand that, given the budget cuts announced recently, it's one minute to midnight for the budgets of each of our cities. It really doesn't make us happy to see that happen.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's extremely unfortunate, because not only is public transit a good way to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, but it's also a way to reduce traffic congestion and improve the quality of life of all people, whom you also represent, Mr. Tremblay.

Mr. Viau, there has been a lot of talk in recent years about electrifying transportation. People are obviously investing heavily in the battery sector, and we're very pleased that the road fleet has gone electric.

However, you raised the issue of electric bikes.

French engineer Jean‑Marc Jancovici, who is very involved in the whole energy transition issue, tells us that 80% of people travel five to 10 kilometres in urban centres. Of course, that doesn't apply to remote areas. He says that the best electric vehicle is an electric bike, because that's exactly what we need.

What's your game plan to encourage people to purchase and use electric bikes?

[Marc-André Viau]

Just on the subject of Via Rail, better WiFi would make a big difference.

You're right about electric-assist bikes. Countless car trips could be replaced by bike trips.

We are currently running an awareness-raising program called Vélovolt. We work with businesses so they can give their employees a chance to test electric-assist bikes and trial this mode of transportation for a month. I suggest you visit our website to find out more. That might be something the House of Commons could consider.

We're already making e‑bikes available to businesses and their employees. They try them, and many continue to use them after the program. The waiting list for companies that want to participate in the program is very long. I believe municipalities are participating too. It works very well, and people want it.

E‑bikes are expensive, though. That's why we offer this program, which is geared to income. We don't want to subsidize people who earn enough money to buy one of these bikes on their own.

Programs that offer incentives for buying electric cars aren't geared to income.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

What I'm hearing is that the financial incentive should be progressive and based on income.

During last year's pre-budget consultations, you advocated for the right to repair, an eco-friendly measure that helps households save money by not having to buy new products.

The right to repair and the tax credit are great, but sometimes a product simply can't be fixed because it's made of lots of plastic pieces that break and can't be welded back together.

What's being done to encourage people not only to repair their things, but to buy things that can be repaired in the first place?

[Marc-André Viau]

First of all, people need access to information about the product they're buying. We encourage governments to adopt repairability indexes so that consumers can opt to buy a more repairable product rather than a less repairable one. The index should also be prominently displayed.

Getting information from manufacturers and making regulations that guarantee access to replacement parts would be a good start. That's one solution worth working on.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Fortin, you welcomed the removal of the GST from the construction of rental units. We all agree that more rental housing and housing in general needs to be built.

That measure, which the NDP proposed, is not tied to any criteria around improving consumer access. That doesn't sit right with us.

What can be done to ensure that removing the tax doesn't just end up boosting property developers' profit margins?

[Paul Cardinal]

That's another excellent observation.

Property developers do not have the luxury of keeping their prices where they are and believing they'll be able to sell or rent their buildings.

Yes, there's a housing shortage, but consumers won't necessarily be able to pay $2,400 a month in rent. The point isn't really who gets to pocket the GST; the point is figuring out whether these proposals get off the ground because either they're financially viable or they're not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

Now we're going into our second round of questions. The times are a bit different.

It's five minutes for the first MP, who is MP Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I'd like to take 10 seconds or so to respond to my Bloc colleague. The Conservatives will stand up for the rights of Quebeckers and the rights of the Quebec nation. We will use all parliamentary tools. We would hope that all parties, particularly the Bloc Québécois, would be willing to stand up for Quebeckers.

I want to move on from there to talk to Mr. Cardinal and Mr. Fortin with respect to Bill C-356, which of course is Pierre Poilievre's private member's bill on housing, and build upon what my colleague was talking about. One of the things it says is that the CMHC will have to get the response to a funding application out the door within 60 days or the executives will suffer a 50% loss in bonuses.

Do you support the quickening of the pace that CMHC processes are worked on?

[Fabrice Fortin]

Thank you for the question.

Last week, there was an announcement about 8,000 residential units being built for Quebec. That was welcome news for sure, but more must be done.

According to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the CMHC, 1.2 million units have to be built by 2030. That means keeping up the pace, improving the fund and making it permanent. Several measures need to be taken, and Bill C‑356 is part of that, of course.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for both municipality representatives and for Mr. Fortin and Mr. Cardinal.

With the current trajectory and the federal government policies currently in place—and I believe we're millions of doors behind where we need to be—will we get to a state of equilibrium between supply and demand in housing?

[Paul Cardinal]

This is a step in the right direction because new units increase supply, but it will probably not be enough.

We heard earlier about Quebec's housing shortage, which is expected to be around 860,000 units by 2030.

The CMHC also projects that Canada as a whole will be 3.45 million housing units short by 2030.

This is a step in the right direction, but we need to run, not just walk.

[Samuel Roy]

Yes, this investment is a step in the right direction, but the disparity between supply and demand in the housing market is so significant that it will be difficult to resolve.

That's why all partners have to work together to find solutions and speed up construction.

Various macroeconomic factors are contributing to the slowdown too. Higher interest rates, for example, have a significant impact.

There's one more thing I'd like to add. Right now, a lot of municipal infrastructure is operating at capacity. We may want to build new housing, but there's no money to update things like water and wastewater infrastructure. That means we can't build more homes in some places.

We want to move forward and build more, but there has to be enough money for municipal infrastructure to support new housing. Right now that's a challenge.

[Guillaume Tremblay]

That's why we have to take advantage of the economic slowdown to update our infrastructure, but we need federal and provincial subsidies to make that happen.

I talked about the TECQ program earlier. You need to come to an agreement with Quebec soon so we can move forward as quickly as possible once economic activity picks up. When that happens, our APCHQ colleagues will be able to build non-stop.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

Now we'll go to MP Shanahan for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to talk more about housing.

Mr. Tremblay, would you comment on the impact of last week's announcement about capacity to accelerate the construction of residential units in Quebec?

What are the obstacles to that? Do you have any solutions to put forward?

[Guillaume Tremblay]

I am on the same page as my APCHQ colleagues with respect to the $1.8‑billion agreement that was announced, which is made up of $900 million each from the federal and provincial governments. The goal is to come up with lots of solutions for both private sector housing construction and community, social and family housing. I think that's important.

As you know, Canada is in an economic slowdown. My colleague made it very clear earlier that existing infrastructure in Quebec's biggest cities is operating at capacity. I agree with those who say we should take advantage of the economic slowdown to make massive infrastructure investments. We need to get busy building housing before the economy recovers for the private sector. Let's not end up two or three years from now wishing we had done it then.

We need to make massive investments in updating our infrastructure now. That's why we want the government to quickly come to an agreement with Quebec about infrastructure funding.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

There's still a challenge when it comes to planning.

Some municipalities in my riding have had opportunities to do so, but they haven't always been able to invest in infrastructure for various reasons, including the cost of renovating. This has been a challenge for 30 years.

It's important to say that we benefited from the lowest interest rates ever for almost 25 years. Now, we're seeing the difference when the rates climb a few points. In fact, it's putting a sudden stop to certain projects.

Is the Union des municipalités du Québec looking for medium- and long-term strategic solutions to solve this problem?