Finance Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

On a point of order.

We can continue debating the amendment, but before voting on it, I'd like to wait until I receive the French version.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

MP Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I was momentarily concerned about the maintenance of the speaking order.

The amendment is of course material to the main motion, and the amendment would reduce the tax increase that is coming on Canadians for the excise tax on beer, wine and spirits.

I don't support the amendment, because I think the automatic escalation of taxes on beer, wine and spirits should be repealed outright. It's not right that there would be an automatic increase of any type that wouldn't be put to a vote in the House of Commons, where MPs can actually vote on whether or not the government ought to increase taxes. There's a democratic principle and a governance principle around taxation and votes in Parliament.

While undoubtedly a 2% increase would be less worse than the 4.5% or 5% increase that would result in the absence of a change to the automatic escalation of taxes that's going to come in, I would support a zero tax increase this year; and I would support no tax increase on beer, wine and spirits until and unless it's put to Parliament, the way tax increases should be.

Under this government, the tax on beer, wine and spirits has gone up every year since 2016. They brought in the escalator, raised the tax then, and put the tax increase system on autopilot, so that it goes up every single year.

Critics of my private member's bill, for example, which seeks to repeal the automatic escalator, have asked why I worry about the price of beer, wine and spirits going up a little bit for Canadians. Canadians can afford a little bit extra on something that's a discretionary spending item.

To them I would say no. This cannot become a country where the simplest middle-class pleasures become unaffordable for working Canadians, where a bottle of wine with a loved one—we just had Valentine's Day—goes beyond that which middle-class working Canadians can afford, or going and having a beer with your friends to watch a hockey game.... These are middle-class consumers who are having their taxes raised every single year regardless of the will of the current Parliament of the day.

It's not right, so I would support repealing the automatic escalator entirely. I would encourage parliamentarians to support my private member's bill that would do that. In the meantime, I would encourage parliamentarians at this committee to oppose the amendment and support the original motion unamended.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Kelly.

Go ahead, MP Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I would just say that I think what Mr. Blaikie has proposed is quite reasonable, and we're prepared to support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Baker.

Would anybody else like to speak to this amendment?

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

I'll say something on the amendment.

I don't see why we need to be playing a game of chicken with taxpayers and small businesses. We know that insolvencies are up. They are having a tougher and tougher time because of this government's high-tax, high-spend agenda.

I think that we should have this conversation again once inflation is down. Inflation is not down, as Mr. Blaikie pointed out. It's not within the target rate. The way the trend is going right now, it doesn't look like it's going to get there any time soon, so I think we should do everything we can to stand up for those struggling small businesses and not put more taxes and more burden on them. It's not just the small businesses that are suffering from this. Like I mentioned, there are many workers in ride-share companies and taxi drivers who I talk to all the time. They are seeing their business go down because they are seeing less and less business coming out of restaurants and bars.

I think we should do everything we can to defend their paycheques and make sure that their paycheques are more powerful. Unless inflation comes down to target, we should do everything we can to reduce people's taxes, not increase them.

We know that the carbon tax is also going to increase, on top of the payroll tax that happened January 1. That is less money in people's pockets as well.

We just had witnesses here who talked about shelter costs and then we talked about food. The increase in everything means less in people's pockets. If they want to enjoy those small things—I'm not a drinker myself—I will defend small businesses and Canadians to be able to enjoy those things that should not be a luxury in this country. It seems like we're moving more and more towards that.

I urge my colleagues to think about those Canadians and small businesses that are suffering. Let's not increase taxes. Let's do everything in this committee that we can so that we can decrease their taxes and make sure that they have more powerful paycheques.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Hallan.

I have MP Chambers and then MP Dzerowicz.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On the amendment, in principle, I support the original motion. I think the amendment has the effect of what the government decided to do last year. In the sense that that's an ultimate compromise, I suppose that's better than my preferred approach. On principle, I will support the original amendment.

I will just provide verbal notice of a motion:

That, with respect of Royal Bank of Canada’s purchase of HSBC Canada, the Committee call on the government to require an amount equal to no less than $100M be set aside in escrow for a period of 18 months to cover any fines, penalties or levies that may potentially be against HSBC Canada in connection with any current or future investigations by regulators or authorities under relevant legislation or regulations, including the Proceeds of Crime and Money Laundering Terrorist Financing Act.

I don't believe that it would be fair for the shareholders of RBC to be on the hook for potential actions taken by HSBC Canada prior to the merger. I suspect that there's already some amount of set-aside negotiated. I have no information in that respect, but I'm providing verbal notice of this motion as a way to make sure that taxpayers will get money if there were any wrongdoings by HSBC Canada prior to the transaction and that RBC shareholders aren't on the hook. By the way, shareholders include many Canadians through their pension funds, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Go ahead, MP Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I want to thank Mr. Blaikie for the proposed amendment. I do support it.

I will say to you that in my tiny riding of 12 square kilometres, I have a lot of microbreweries and a lot of breweries. They are very supportive of the 2%. It's what they asked for last year and it's what they're asking for this year. If they can keep it to the 2%, they feel that's affordable.

Also, Mr. Hallan, inflation has come down from 8.1% a couple of summers ago to 3.4% in December. It's not in the target range, but if you recall, the Governor of the Bank of Canada does believe it's moving into the target range and expects it to be there toward the end of this year.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Go ahead, MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

This is a technical question, because I don't know how all the guts of the work gets done by the great people who support us.

If the interpreters are the ones translating the motion, then I'm wondering whether we should suspend so that they don't have to translate us while they're trying to translate the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

The clerk could answer that. He has sent it to translation. I don't know where that is, up there in the ether, and we don't know how long that will take.

I could propose something else. We could use this time to transition to the PBC. When we do get that translation, we could get back to this and deal with it. Just the transitioning will eat up some time too.

Are members in agreement?

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

We would be fine with that, as long as the votes are in public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Well, then we'd have to come back after that again. We'd have to transition.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Then we wouldn't agree. We want this in public.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Can we have recorded votes and publish them? Can we agree to do that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

No. That cannot be done in camera.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Do we know how long the interpreters will be?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'll ask the clerk to inform the members, please.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

Just to respond to Mr. Blaikie's question, our interpreters are not translators. We have a translation service called Tipdoc for urgent requests, which is where I sent it. They're working on it right now.

I can't inform the committee on how much time this will take.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Would it make sense to just have a brief suspension, then, while we wait and see?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Or, as was requested, we could also transition to PBC and then transition back out.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I would just suspend.