Finance Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Ms. Houle, thank you for referencing seniors' housing. That's something I spend a tremendous amount of time on and my question there is going to link to the homeless encampment. Thank you for that report, and for referencing the need to have broader supports, often mental health and physical health supports for substance use, and links with the justice system so it's not criminalized and so on.

You have worked in this sector for a very long time. Would you speak about the role of provincial governments in supporting the understanding that there isn't just one door or one solution to homelessness or housing needs, that there are actually multiple doors and there are various entry points, beginning, obviously, with someone who is not housed at all? Could you speak about the role of municipalities and provincial governments, particularly municipalities, and how we need to work with municipalities and how the accelerator fund is doing that to really ensure the wraparound supports are there but also the zoning and the acceptance that we need multiple types of housing, seniors' housing included, to be able to address the crisis in the country?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I hope I understood your question appropriately. Housing is multi-jurisdictional and my report on encampments has called for a national response plan to be put in place by August 31 that includes representation from all levels of government. It needs to be led by the federal government, because this is a national issue, and what we're seeing is a patchwork of responses: some of them are human rights-based and led, and some are very punitive and also violate human rights. It's very important that we have representation of all levels of government, including indigenous government, because this is also an overrepresentation of people who are indigenous, so it's not only a human rights violation but also a violation of indigenous rights.

All levels of government have a role to play. Like you outlined, for municipalities, it is about bylaw, it is about zoning; for the provinces, it's also about funding around housing, but also around health—health is a huge issue. It can't be a siloed approach and we really need, I can't stress it enough, coordination. We need to address this. Nobody wants encampments in this country; we should not have encampments in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Thompson.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Let's talk about the financialization of housing. In Montreal alone—and I'm sure it's comparable to Vancouver and Toronto—0.46% of landlords own one‑third of the rental stock. That means there is a major concentration of owners in the rental stock. In fact, this morning's La Presse featured an article about a landlord who is evicting tenants. These people have a major impact on housing prices, and I'd like to ask the witnesses for one or two key measures to remedy this.

Mrs. Houle, you may begin.

[Marie-Josée Houle]

I'm sorry, but I didn't understand your question.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'm talking about measures to tackle financialization. It's in your report, and you mentioned it in your opening remarks. What would be the most significant measure to put in place fairly quickly to tackle the financialization of housing?

[Marie-Josée Houle]

One is to properly tax REITs, which I believe are not taxed. The government has done a study on this, and we must deal with the issue as soon as possible. A measure like this would ensure that investment in housing is less attractive to investors.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Cimon, do you want to add anything?

[Éric Cimon]

The first thing we have to do is make sure that there is no speculation and that the government does not contribute to it. When we fund private affordable housing, that housing can be purchased by an investor. Then it could become financialized, which defeats the purpose.

To ensure that the money will properly serve the public in the long term, the government must turn to social and community housing. It also needs to expand the target population: social housing must not be reserved for low-income and vulnerable people. It should also be for people who are simply not rich. By maintaining a large housing stock, investing in non-profit collectively owned properties and focusing on the social economy, we will be sure to avoid speculation.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Sullivan, what can you add, briefly?

[Ray Sullivan]

We have to make sure that a third of the stock is social housing.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

MP Blaikie, go ahead for two minutes, please. You will be the final questioner of our witnesses.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

We heard today that spending on housing is non-inflationary. Incidentally, today is not the first time we've heard these things. We've heard that there are ways in which the government can actually leverage public land, not only to build housing but also to improve its financial position on the ledger through leasing, for example. We know that new housing projects can leverage market rent in order to make deep affordability possible for other units.

I'm curious to get a quick survey of our witnesses today. As much as addressing the housing crisis costs money—and I'm not trying to gloss over that—it sounds to me as though the financial resources do exist to address the problem. Is it a problem, principally, of getting access to financing, or is it a problem of political will and getting long-term funding commitments out of the federal government, and getting governments on the same page to get the administrative ducks in a row to be able to mobilize a sector that is clearly ready to deliver on the housing that Canadians need?

We'll start with Ms. Houle and take a quick answer from each of our witnesses.

[Marie-Josée Houle]

You said it: The non-market housing sector, co-ops and non-profits are ready. They know what to do. The business acumen exists. We do need the political will, but we also need the alignment of all levels of government to make it happen. We also need an all-of-government approach.

This is not just a housing issue; it is a housing, health and mental health issue as well, and it involves protecting people.

[Éric Cimon]

If we don't do everything you talked about soon and on a big scale, we won't have a housing crisis; we'll have a social crisis.

We have to make sure that we as a country wake up and do what we need to do to avoid that. We have all the tools; we just need to have the will and the money and make sure that everybody is on the same page.

[Ray Sullivan]

The commitments that were made under the national housing strategy expire in 2028 or before. We are within sight of that cliff and can see those things dropping off. Four years is a very short period of time when it comes to developing affordable housing, and we need to ensure that that legacy continues or we will be in the social crisis that Mr. Cimon described.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Just before we get back to MP Hallan's motion, we want to thank our witnesses.

Thank you for coming before the finance committee, some of you with very short notice. You did a fabulous job. Thank you for your testimony on this housing study. We'll let you go at this time.

We'll get back to the motion.

I had MP Blaikie, MP Kelly and then MP Chambers on the list.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

As I said earlier, New Democrats are of the view that increases in the excise tax on beer, wine and liquor shouldn't exceed the target rate of inflation. That's not exactly what this motion proposes to do. I would like to suggest an amendment that would help this motion do that.

I, therefore, move that the motion be amended to replace everything after “past year” with the following:

breweries, wineries and distilleries are an important source of wealth and employment in the Canadian economy, and industry sales have not returned to prepandemic levels, the committee calls on the government to limit the April 1, 2024, increase of the excise tax on beer, wine and liquor to the Bank of Canada's target inflation rate of 2%.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I just wish we had—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Wait. Am I not next?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

This is to the amendment.