Evidence of meeting #153 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was changes.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steven Lewis  Adjunct Professor of Health Policy, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Jack Chaffe  Officer at Large, Canadian Cattle Association
Kim G. C. Moody  Moodys LLP Tax Advisors, As an Individual
Yves Giroux  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Govindadeva Bernier  Director, Budgetary Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Katrina Miller  Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

5:35 p.m.

Moodys LLP Tax Advisors, As an Individual

Kim G. C. Moody

It has a devastating impact. I'm working on a file right now, a very significant Ontario employer is packing up, leaving and moving to Florida. They don't need to be in Ontario. They're homegrown Canadians, but they don't need to be here. There were all these tax changes and, frankly, capital gains was just the final straw.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

There are other tax policies under this government that have led to capital flight.

5:35 p.m.

Moodys LLP Tax Advisors, As an Individual

Kim G. C. Moody

Yes, and I could list a lot of them if you want.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Please do.

5:35 p.m.

Moodys LLP Tax Advisors, As an Individual

Kim G. C. Moody

There are the high personal tax rates. There are the changes to private corporations and their shareholders that were introduced in 2018. There are the anti-income splitting rules. Even some of the real estate measures, like the ridiculous short-term rental stuff, are very ridiculous and dangerous, frankly, for Canada.

There have been numerous floats by the Prime Minister's Office of a wealth tax, which, of course, hasn't been implemented.

Long story short, all these things spook entrepreneurs and have them looking elsewhere.

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Kelly.

Now we're going to our final questioner, who is MP Thompson.

Joanne Thompson Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to pass my time to my colleague, PS Bendayan.

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you, colleague.

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Miller, we just heard testimony from Mr. Moody a moment ago about capital gains. We've had several witnesses appear before this committee and say that increases to capital gains actually don't disincentivize investment. The Conservative government of Prime Minister Brian Mulroney increased capital gains significantly to 75%, and the evidence is to the effect that investment was not disincentivized.

I wonder if you'd like to comment on that from your perspective, Ms. Miller.

5:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

Katrina Miller

That's exactly what our study found as well. There's just no correlation between high capital gains inclusion rates and reduced productivity, either in our country or in other countries.

If we want to use our tax system in targeted ways to incentivize investment, we should go ahead and do so—and we do, through various types of tax credits. The green technology tax credits that have been proposed are one such way that we can target an incentive for investment, but providing this large, broad-ranging capital gains tax break really doesn't do anything for our productivity.

There's no evidence that can be found to show that increasing it is going to somehow hamper our productivity.

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you very much, Ms. Miller.

Mr. Lewis, do you have anything to add from your perspective?

5:35 p.m.

Adjunct Professor of Health Policy, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

Steven Lewis

No. I think that's exactly right. These broad-based measures create a lot of unintended consequences and, frankly, unintended beneficiaries—or perhaps intended—when you use them.

As we said at the beginning, a tax regime can't do everything about everything. It can do a lot about equity and fairness. Any measure that is relatively modest and increases to some modest extent equity and fairness actually does more for the economy than the alleged prices.

I'll say one final thing. To those who say, “Well, it's going to make people leave the country,” or “It's going to affect investment decisions in a major way,” yes, moving out of the country is always an alternative. If you want to go and hunt down a lower tax rate, you always have that option if your capital is mobile. On the other hand, for people like me, what do you think I'm going to do about this increase as an alternative to generate a better return, since I will still get a privileged return from the dividends and the lower tax rate?

For most people, there's simply no viable option, even if we don't like it. Even if I don't like paying more money, I'm still going to invest in exactly the same way because it's still a better deal tax-wise. It's probably, as Ms. Miller said, still an unfair deal, and only slightly less unfair in my favour.

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you very much.

With the remaining time I have, Mr. Chair, and given the discussion that happened both at this meeting and the last, I would suggest that Thursday's meeting be dedicated to committee business. I would like to put on notice the following motion.

This is on pre-budget consultations:

That the committee hold pre-budget consultations for the 2025 budget, and that: a. The committee dedicate no fewer than ten meetings to pre-budget consultations and that it report its findings to the House; b. The Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister and departmental officials be invited to appear before the committee.

We could debate it and discuss it at the next meeting, if that's the will of the committee.

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, PS Bendayan. I'm sure that will be distributed to members.

We want to thank our witnesses for the testimony they have provided our committee for our study on capital gains.

Thank you very much to our witnesses and members.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB

There was a motion, Chair, that was adopted back in May for carbon tax Carney to appear here. I would just like to know if you have heard back from carbon tax Carney at all.

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We're adjourned.