Finance Committee on Oct. 10th, 2024

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hatch, how many members do you have that would be eligible? Do you know how much money they would get if they were included in the carbon tax rebate?

[Michael Hatch]

To answer your first question, it's about 170. My organization represents all credit unions outside of Quebec, of which there are 185. All but 15 of those have fewer than 500 employees and would qualify.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Do you know how much money they could expect to receive if they were included?

[Michael Hatch]

It would depend on their size. If they have 499 employees, it would be several hundreds of thousands dollars, all the way down to a much smaller number, obviously, for smaller institutions.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

They pay utility bills. You have to heat these branches.

[Michael Hatch]

Yes. They're as exposed to the burden of the price as a lot of other sectors that are benefiting.

Again, it's an easy fix. The numbers, overall, are a drop in the bucket compared to the 600,000 small businesses that are going to be getting money in a couple of months.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Why do you think you've been ignored by the government?

[Michael Hatch]

I don't think we've been ignored, to be fair. Nothing is ever perfect when it comes out of the Department of Finance.

I think there was a desire to get this out the door in a way that, perhaps, was imperfect. I've had discussions with departmental officials in the past few days, and there is an openness to making the fix, going forward. We hope it will be possible in either the FES or the budget in the spring.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

That's great. Thank you very much for your testimony. I'm sure we'll get to some other questions from my colleagues.

Ms. Yetman, it's wonderful to have you back here. It's been three times in six months. I need to thank you for our interaction last time. In fact, the government was so kind as to post it for me.

I have a consideration for you to take back, for what it's worth: You might want to survey your members about some of the items you're talking about, because I've had current teachers approach me saying, “Look, I really like my health care plan. By the way, I don't like the capital gains tax.” Now, that's anecdotal, so I don't have evidence to suggest this. However, I'm hearing it back from some of your members. If you had a survey or something, I think that would be super helpful for the committee.

Mr. Chair, I think that might be my time, but we can follow it up later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That is your time.

We are now moving to MP Sorbara for six minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair. It's great to be here this afternoon.

I welcome all of the witnesses to the finance committee.

I wish to start with the Native Child and Family Services of Toronto.

In your pre-budget submission, you are requesting “$15 million in renewable, annual funding” from the Government of Canada “to ensure services can be delivered to over 8,000 unique community members through 164 programs.”

Now, I'm going to qualify this. Many times, when we get an ask at finance committee, it's a large one. It's much more than $15 million. If I asked you, Melissa, what the impact of $15 million in annual programming to the Native Child and Family Services of Toronto would be, could you please answer?

[Melissa Hamonic]

The impact would be immense. We know there's a disproportionate number of indigenous children brought into the child welfare system, and we know this happens because of ongoing discrimination. It also happens because of a lack of services put in place. This money would allow us to continue to provide crucial services that would not only keep families together but also provide the tools and practices of well-being, which all parents need. In very real ways, this provides food security, parenting programs and healing opportunities for moms and children who have addiction issues connected to intergenerational trauma.

These are real, tangible items that are going to keep kids out of the system. That's the money we're asking for. It's very specifically for over 164 programs that are there to keep families together, and to keep them growing healthy together.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Melissa, I will say, regarding this request, that you have my unbridled support. I think something like a $15-million ask to help some of the most vulnerable in our society is the right thing to do. I don't think any parties would disagree with me.

I'll go to the nurses.

Linda, welcome.

I want to get your opinion on something. In some of our provinces, there are agencies that are hiring our nurses and, I feel, increasingly wasting taxpayer dollars in the way this is happening. I believe nurses do a spectacular job, day in and day out, helping Canadians in the most unfortunate of situations. The cost of the differential in fees, in terms of having a nurse attached to a hospital or an organization versus being contracted out to some agency, which then takes a cut....

How is that hurting our health care system?

[Linda Silas]

Well, there's the cost, of course.

We just produced, from Queen's University, a research paper on opening what we call the “black box”. In the last year, it was $1.5 billion. That is a lot of money. It's a sixfold increase from past the pandemic. We thought the pandemic was a big cost. This is more.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

These aren't dollars going to frontline services for Canadians. They are dollars going to pay a third party—a middle person—to employ nurses at a hospital. This is money that could be reallocated to actual frontline services for Canadians, which is a responsibility of the provinces. It is, namely—in this case—in Conservative provinces where this is occurring.

Is that not correct?

[Linda Silas]

You're absolutely right. They charge up to $318 per hour for a nurse. The nurse is not receiving that, but the employers are being charged that amount of money. We're seeing more and more nurses leaving good community jobs and going there because of the heavy workload. We're also seeing the quality of patient care being decreased because of the lack of teamwork in our health care field.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

If we can talk about a threat to our public health care system, it definitely comes from one side of the spectrum on the political side.

I'll go now to Mr. Hatch.

Welcome, Michael. It's great to see you.

For a number of years, we worked very closely together with you and your predecessors for the credit unions. I would be remiss if I didn't give a shout-out to IC Savings in my community, headquartered in Etobicoke with a number of branches, a success of the Italian Canadian community in terms of a credit union. I grew up in Prince Rupert and the credit union that existed there was a pillar of our community.

You have talked about the carbon rebate and how you'd like to be included. I'm really grateful to hear that you're having those discussions wherever they may go.

In terms of the importance of the competition that credit unions provide in Canada and small business lending, in terms of pricing on mortgages and the services you provide to small businesses, in an era when we talk about competition and choice, how important is it that we continue to work together? We have done so on two different initiatives, the banker and banking issue from eight or nine years ago, and then more recently, the changes within the BIA legislation for credit unions. How important is it that we continue this collaboration for Canadians and for small businesses?

[Michael Hatch]

Thank you for your history of support for the sector as well as your membership in your local community credit union. We appreciate the shout-out.

Credit unions are collectively the largest lender to small business in Canada. We're a huge presence in that market. It's often the case, more than just on anecdotal terms, that a small business would go to one of the large banks with a business plan and strike out and go across the street to the local credit union and land financing for their venture. We're very proud of that. Our local knowledge of our members allows us to participate in a very robust manner in that market. We appreciate that, and we never take it for granted.

In terms of competition, there are so many things. I alluded in my opening remarks to the increased powers of the Competition Bureau that we have to be cognizant of and some of the potential, not only unintended but perverse, consequences of the increased powers of the Competition Bureau with regard to scrutinizing mergers and the challenges that could pose for our sector.

This perhaps could be a longer-term proposition, but we need a more streamlined regime for credit unions to go federal. Many of you will know that there's been a federal option for credit unions in place since 2014, I believe, so for a decade. Effectively, that option doesn't exist, because it takes seven to eight years and millions of dollars for a credit union to go from provincial to federal jurisdiction. It's just not realistic for 99% of our members. We need a streamlined version of that. It should take one year, not eight years. The reason so few credit unions have decided to go down that road is that it's just not an option because of the burden and the time it takes. We need to think about ways that we can reduce that burden and allow more of the current provincially regulated institutions to go federal so that they can grow beyond their own provinces, again, to be able to provide competition, to compete outside their home markets across Canada to compete with the banks.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes. We'll go now to MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to congratulate all the witnesses. I am very grateful to them for being here and for their presentations. There is a lot there we can use in the report we will be submitting to the minister.

My questions are for the Unifor representatives, but just before that, I would like to read the motion I sent you on Friday, which I said a few words about at our last meeting. I don't want to debate it; I just want to give the committee notice. It is as follows:

That the committee request that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC): a. Provide answers to the questions asked during Meeting 102, on Thursday, September 28, 2023, regarding the update for the study on the policy decisions and market forces that have led to increases in the cost of buying or renting a home in Canada with new population growth scenarios, with the data broken down for Quebec, the provinces and the territories; and b. Table the information referred to in (a) with the committee within 10 working days after this motion is adopted; and That, if the documents are not tabled by the deadline, Coleen Volk, President and Chief Executive Officer, Bob Dugan, Chief Economist, Aled Ab Iorwerth, Deputy Chief Economist, and Chris Woodcock, Director, Client Development and Government Relations, be called to appear before the committee to explain why they have been unable to provide this information for more than a year.

Last night, Mr. Fragiskatos, who is the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, contacted me to let me know that CMHC still had not updated the data for this study, but it was actively working on it and we should have it when we come back from the break, or during the first week of November at the latest. So I will not be moving the motion. I just wanted to give notice of it. Mr. Fragiskatos promised me that we would have the data for this study, so I take him at his word. We are impatiently awaiting the updated data.

I will now come back to the Unifor people.

Thank you for being here, once again. I took great interest in your aerospace policy, which is very complete. It is over 40 pages long and presents a comprehensive vision.

Let's start by talking about the first two recommendations you referred to, Mr. Cloutier. In other words, tell us about the importance of creating a national industrial strategy for the aerospace industry and an aerospace development council.

I am listening.

[Daniel Cloutier]

It is important that we adopt a Canadian vision to determine what we want to do with our aerospace industry and how we want to position ourselves for the future. The only way to achieve this, in our view, is to revise the strategic framework and the framework for collaboration among the stakeholders. That kind of policy has to be developed in collaboration with the stakeholders and by keeping processes for ongoing consultation in place that will enable the policy to grow, evolve and be properly applied. We have to position ourselves in relation to new technologies and investments. We used to be fourth in the world and we are now sixth. So the current formula needs to be reviewed.

Montreal is one of only three cities in the world that can certify a plane from A to Z. However, we have seen investment associated with this ability decline. It is essential that we not lose our capacity to certify aircraft and develop new technologies.

We believe the way to do this is to have a clear vision that incorporates the stakeholders' capacities, helps them fill their gaps or correct their weaknesses, if any, and enables them to face the Canadian aerospace industry forward, so we regain our fourth place or even become better.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

It is somewhat surprising to see that Canada is dropping down the global ranks.

You criticized the fact that investments were being made piecemeal. You said it was like having a car without a steering wheel.

Have the countries who hold the first five places chosen not to have an aerospace strategy, as Canada has done, or are we the only one?

[Daniel Cloutier]

To our knowledge and as we understand it, and from our researchers' findings, yes, the countries that are the most active in this field have a clear industrial vision. There are also a number of emerging countries that want to get in and take a share of this market and are being very vigorous in the efforts they are making and in developing their own capacities and their own vision, in order to achieve this. It is therefore important that we act quickly to take a strategic position if we do not want to see the decline continue.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

You spoke about this a bit in your presentation, but I would like you to explain the role the people on the ground should play, the workers and the other stakeholders, in creating this kind of strategy and in creating an aerospace development council.