Finance Committee on March 7th, 2022

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Would this very private information have been provided to five, 10, or 15 financial institutions or just the one?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

No, it would have been provided to the financial institutions.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

How many would that be?

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

It started with only the major banks, and then later it included the credit unions and other entities also.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Mr. Chair, I see—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's about five minutes. I don't know if it's very short.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes. I'll be really quick.

The point is that each one of these institutions would probably have had multiple people seeing this. Easily 50 or 100 people would have seen this very personal information of people.

[Supt Denis Beaudoin]

Yes, the information was shared with the financial institutions.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Lawrence.

For our final questioner, we have the Liberals and MP Dzerowicz for five minutes.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our two witnesses for their patience and for doing such a great job in answering our questions.

While listening to the testimony, I had to take myself back into the situation of how it all started—the trucker convoy coming towards Ottawa and moving from a protest to an occupation. My sense is it's something that has never really occurred. It was highly unusual.

Perhaps I can ask this to any of our witnesses who want to talk to this. What was unusual about the situation, from the start and as it unfolded? Could you comment on that?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

That's a good question.

Over 34 years I have seen several protests, but as for a siege like this, in which people didn't want to leave and they took control of a downtown area in a major city, that was the first time really.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

We have to almost remind ourselves about it, because there was not only the siege but also the blockades. Then there was not one but multiple blockades across the country. Had you ever seen that before, or was that the first time as well?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

You mean a movement like this in Canada that now is going global? No.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I want to confirm again that as things progressed—you mentioned, I believe, if I heard correctly—there were some consultations about some additional measures or powers that might be needed. My understanding is that the federal government had consulted with the RCMP, and the RCMP had indicated that they needed some additional measures to urgently address a situation that was rapidly, aggressively and unpredictably unfolding. Can you confirm that the recommendation was from the RCMP that additional Emergencies Act measures were needed, specifically the three you mentioned—the ability to share the information with the financial institutions, the ability to do so very quickly, and the ability to do so in a time-limited way?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

There are some areas in the act that served us. It really served us as law enforcement just for the travel, for example, in the emergency economic measures order.

We were limited to what we had in front of us, and when this came to us as law enforcement, it was another tool to be used.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I don't want to put words into your mouth, Assistant Commissioner, but it seemed like things had progressed and it got to a point where we needed some urgent tools to be able to aggressively deal with the situation. That is what I'm hearing from today. The Emergencies Act was suggested in a time-limited and geographically defined way for us to be able to address the issue.

I've forgotten who asked this, but there was some comment about the local police being the area of jurisdiction and whether or not the RCMP should have advised our federal government. Again, I take it as being due to the unusualness and the first time we have this type of situation.

When there's what would be seen as a local situation on the ground in Ottawa, is it typical that the RCMP would go to the federal government and provide advice, or is there a tipping point? Is there a normal protocol that's in place?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

There are regular discussions with the government. We don't necessarily ask them to address the situation, but we could look at ways to address it.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

In my final 30 seconds, now that we've enacted and revoked the Emergencies Act—this is along the lines of Mr. Blaikie's questioning—if you had to make some recommendations, what have we learned that you might add to your...?

If you were consulted again, would you have added something, or would you have left it exactly as in your recommendations to our government around the Emergencies Act and the measures that you needed to bring things under control?

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

It's hard to pinpoint exactly where we could have improved. One area of improvement, as explained by Superintendent Denis Beaudoin, is to have more precision on how we could freeze accounts and how we were going to be acting if it were for a longer period. There could probably be more guidance for the financial institutions.

To go back to exactly what area we we need to adjust, we will take some time to reflect on this and come back.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much. Again, thanks to both of you for your excellent presentation today and for your patience in answering all our questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Dzerowicz.

Members, we've had two panels today with excellent witnesses, I would say. That's what all members have been invoking here and saying on the invocation of the Emergencies Act to inform our study.

We want to thank Assistant Commissioner Michel Arcand and Superintendent Denis Beaudoin for their time, their remarks and their answers to many of the questions by the Standing Committee on Finance. Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you also on behalf of all those—the clerk, the interpreters and the staff—who help with our committee. We thank you for your time.

[A/Commr Michel Arcand]

Thank you, Chair. I really appreciate the comments that were offered to all the law enforcement who were involved in Ottawa. I'll pass it on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

It's well deserved. Thank you very much.

Members, shall we adjourn?

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Are you revoking the meeting?