Finance Committee on Dec. 7th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everybody, to meeting number three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to the House of Commons order of reference adopted on December 2, the committee is meeting on Bill C-2, an act to provide further support in response to COVID-19.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

Today's meeting is also taking place in a webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members enter immediately as active participants, and all functionalities for the active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants. They can only view the meetings in gallery view.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants in this meeting that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy of October 19 to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when you are seated. You must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer at the entrance of the room.

As the chair, I will enforce these measures for the duration of the meeting and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

One, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure that the interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is in person in the committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I remind everyone that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members whether they are participating virtually or in person.

I'd like now to welcome our witnesses. We have already heard opening statements from these witnesses, who are the same witnesses who were at our second meeting earlier this morning.

We are going to proceed directly to our question time. For the first round of questions, which will be six minutes for each member, we are going to start with the Conservative Party, and, I believe, Mr. Chambers for six minutes.

You have the floor.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again to our witnesses, who are so gracious with their time today.

I'd just like to pick up perhaps where I left off in the last round, with respect to those individuals who may receive benefits, who are ineligible whether by virtue of program design or for reasons of fraud or suspicious behaviour or otherwise.

How many post-payment verification checks have been made of applications and how many of those have been rejected based on these checks? I understand there are pre-payment verification checks, which is a relatively easy hurdle to overcome, but I'm talking about post-payment verification audits.

Thank you.

[Catherine Demers, Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers, for the question, which I understand relates to the previous Canada recovery benefit. Or, is it on other benefits?

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I would include the CRB and the wage subsidy benefits as well.

Thank you.

[Catherine Demers]

Okay. To be able to provide you an answer on these particular aspects of post-verification, which are not under my purview from an ESDC perspective, we would need to follow up on this, perhaps with our colleagues at CRA. This is not something that we would have under our purview.

I could talk about the upfront verification processes that are being proposed in the context of the Canada worker lockdown benefit, but not the outcomes of the post-verification processes that were implemented for the past benefits.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

Is that the same answer for the CEWS recipients?

[Trevor McGowan, Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Yes, it would be. We would have to confirm with our counterparts at the Canada Revenue Agency to get that information.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

As a member of this committee, for us to diligently ensure that we are reviewing this legislation appropriately and that we understand the process, I would request that it be done for this committee. As we heard earlier, it is the same verification process this time as it was last time. I would like an answer to those questions on how many post-verification checks have been completed and how many applicants have been rejected based on those checks.

In addition, could you please outline and document the specific steps for both verification periods? What are the steps the applicant must take for pre-verification? What are the steps the government has to take for pre-verification? Also, what are the steps the government must take for post-verification of audit of applicants for all the programs, for CRB and CEWS?

Separately, since we have been talking about it and an honourable colleague raised some questions earlier about recipients of CEWS that paid dividends, increased executive compensation and repurchased shares, as a member of this committee I think it would be very helpful—and for all of our members here, I think—to receive a list in short order of those recipients of CEWS, including the time period for which the applicant applied. That would be very helpful in my duties on this committee, and I think it would be relevant to other members of this committee as well.

Is that something you could agree to provide? For the list of the CEWS recipients, an easy format like Excel would be very appreciated.

Silence may be acquiescence. Is that...?

[Catherine Demers]

We will take this back. Thank you.

Yes, absolutely, we will take this back and see. We will take the questions back and see what can be provided to provide the details requested.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

As we're well aware, we have some very tight timelines that we've been asked to review this legislation by. I would submit a request for a reasonable deadline of Friday at noon to provide this documentation. If you could meet that requirement, that would certainly help us dispense with our duties.

[Trevor McGowan]

I would just like to add in response on the executive compensation repayment requirements, as that compares 2021 compensation to 2019 compensation, that information would be unavailable, as the 2021 year hasn't ended yet, but we'll certainly reach out to CRA for the other information.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Just so that we're clear on this, a list of all CEWS recipients and the period for which they applied in a simple form in Excel would be very helpful, and then back on the documentation of pre-verification and post-verification checks, both on the applicants' side and the government's side. Then, please confirm for this committee how many post-verification checks have been completed, both for CERB and for CEWS, and how many have been rejected.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

We are moving now to the Liberals for six minutes.

Mr. Baker, you have the floor.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple questions for our witnesses. I couldn't help but overhear the exchange between Mr. Chambers and the officials. Mr. Chambers and his colleagues appear to be very concerned about making sure that those who receive the wage subsidy or the CERB are entitled to receive it.

It was interesting, because I was reminded of a motion in the House, in Parliament—and this was introduced by a Conservative—

That, given that the pandemic has had devastating consequences on Canadian workers and businesses, especially in the restaurant, hospitality and tourism sectors, the House call on the government to: (a) immediately pause the audits of small businesses that received the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy until at least June 2021.

On the one hand, the Conservatives are saying they're very concerned about people receiving the wage subsidy when they shouldn't have received it and on the other hand they voted against measures to make sure that what they're concerned about was not happening. I want to point that out. Indeed, the entire Conservative caucus voted in favour of that motion. The entire government caucus voted against it. I just want to point that out for the record.

I'd like to talk about the impact of these programs. I'm wondering if our team from Finance could speak to how many people have been impacted by the programs that have been put in place to support people and businesses through this pandemic. How many people have benefited from the CERB and how many businesses have benefited through the wage subsidy?

[Yves Poirier, Director, Economic Development, Business Income Tax Division, Department of Finance]

On the wage and rent subsidy, I can answer that part of your question. Based on the latest available data, there have been about 450,000 businesses or employers that have claimed the wage subsidy. The number of employees supported each month varies from month to month, but it was up to 5.3 million at the height of the pandemic. So far $98 billion has been disbursed under this program. On the rent subsidy, so far there have been about 200,000 unique applicants. The amount paid out from this program is $7.3 billion.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Do you have figures for the CERB?

[Yves Poirier]

Sorry, you're muted.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'll try again.

My understanding—

[Yves Poirier]

No, the comment was for Ms. Demers.

[Catherine Demers]

For the Canada recovery benefit, there have been approximately 2.3 million unique applicants—Canadians—who have benefited throughout the duration of the benefit.

For the Canada recovery sickness benefit, there have been about 780,000 unique applicants who have benefited.

For the Canada recovery caregiving benefit, there have been almost 500,000 workers who have benefited across Canada for the duration of the benefit.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. I wanted to recap those numbers and make sure I got them correct.

Through the wage subsidy, 5.3 million people have benefited. Through the rent subsidy, 200,000 businesses have benefited, and who knows how many people it has touched and how many businesses it has allowed to stay afloat and how many individual Canadians it has allowed those businesses to employ. The CRB has touched 2.3 million people. The Canada recovery sickness benefit has impacted 780,000 people, and the caregiving benefit has impacted 500,000 people.

That's an incredible number of people who were desperate for help and who got help from the government at a critical time. I want to thank you and your team and those officials who have been working on that for your hard work in making these programs possible. I think it's something that all of us on both sides of the House and both sides of this committee should be celebrating.

Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have a minute and 15 seconds.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Fine.

I have another question for our colleagues from the Department of Finance.

All through the pandemic, these programs have been adapted to respond to the constantly changing public health situation.

Could you tell us how the department reacted to these various changes?

[Catherine Demers]

I can begin to respond with respect to the transition to the Canada recovery benefit.

This was done at a time when we were seeing an improvement in the economy and the labour market, when employment and unemployment rates had returned to almost pre-pandemic levels and labour shortages were increasing. All these factors were indicators of a great improvement in the labour market this autumn. However, there are still very real risks and uncertainties about the evolution of the virus. That being said, benefits have been adjusted in line with the economic and public health situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We are now moving to the Bloc.

Welcome, Madame Sinclair-Desgagné. The floor is yours for six minutes.