Finance Committee on Dec. 7th, 2021

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

What we're really getting at is that we're being asked to fast-track a bill's passage. There was some ongoing work being done over the last two years.

A bill like Bill C-2 requires a significant amount of time, but legislators and departmental officials had to deal with an election, which seems to have delayed the drafting of this bill, or the conclusion of the drafting of this bill. We then had to wait a significant amount of time for it to come back to Parliament to be introduced as new legislation, and now we've been asked, because of the need for haste, to fast-track the bill's passage.

What we're hearing—at least what I'm hearing—is that it was difficult to get this done on time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

We are moving to the Liberals and Mr. Baker for five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions for our witnesses, but before I ask them, I just want to address something that was said in the prior interventions, particularly by Mr. Blaikie.

I disagree with the conclusion that Mr. Blaikie drew that, because some of the questions weren't answered today, the minister didn't ask them, or that the people advising the minister weren't capable or qualified to provide excellent advice in the crafting of this legislation.

I don't know what questions the minister asked, and I don't know who was at the table in each of those meetings, of course. It's important for us to consider that it's possible—in fact, I think it's likely—that a lot of these questions and many others that we haven't thought of were asked, and that answers were obtained, but they weren't obtained by the officials who are here on this Zoom meeting with us today. These particular folks don't happen to have that information, or they don't recall it. Alternatively, that information was obtained in part by the witnesses who are at this committee, but they don't have that information at their fingertips today.

I can think of several instances where the officials who are on this call trying to answer the questions have said, “Look I don't have that at my fingertips”, but they've committed to getting back to us with that information.

I just want to make sure that we don't jump to conclusions. It's important that this committee gets the answers to the important questions that need to be asked in moving legislation, but it's important that we do not jump to the conclusion that the folks advising the minister aren't capable, or that the minister's not asking the right questions.

I have a question for the Department of Finance officials about the target sectors in this bill, which includes assistance for the tourism sector.

Why is the tourism sector being targeted?

[Maximilian Baylor]

As I indicated, the tourism and hospitality recovery program is intended to support the tourism and hospitality organizations that have been deeply affected and that continue to struggle through the pandemic. It's an area in particular that continues to be affected by the public health restrictions that we're seeing. It's that sector in particular that is bearing that. When we engaged with stakeholders, we heard that these were the sectors that still needed support. That's why the government has been moving to this more targeted approach as the pandemic evolves, as the economy starts to recover, as the health restrictions start to be dialed back, but you still have sectors that need help. As I said, for the tourism and hospitality sector in particular, if you look through those two lenses, it sort of falls in that area.

Again, that's not to say there aren't other organizations outside of that sector that also continue to struggle because of the pandemic, and that's why the hard-hit businesses' recovery program has also been put in place to provide a sort of more blanket, neutral program that's also available.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I understand. This bill is about helping the people who need it the most. The list isn't complete, but it includes the people in the tourism sector, the businesses suffering from the largest revenue declines and the people affected by public health measures that prevent them from working and supporting their families.

Thank you for your response, Mr. Baylor.

Mr. Chair, I think that I have only a few seconds left. Is that right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have about 15 seconds.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

We are moving to the Conservatives.

Is it Mr. McLean or Mr. Poilievre?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

Back on the sickness benefit, if in a post-payment verification an official goes to a claimant and asks for a doctor's note and the claimant says they didn't get one, will the claimant have to return the money that they got from the sickness benefit?

[Catherine Demers]

Thank you for the question.

I will see if my colleague Benoit Cadieux has the answer. Otherwise, we will certainly make sure we obtain an answer from the CRA.

[Benoit Cadieux]

A claimant that would be unable to provide the requested documentation could be found to be disentitled to the benefits they received.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

They could be.

So if they don't provide the documentation, CRA calls up and says, "You could be disentitled." Then the claimant says, "Okay. Am I?" And they say, "Well, you could be."

[Benoit Cadieux]

The act does provide the authority to CRA to disentitle claimants if they don't provide the requested documentation or requested information.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Is there a list of documentation that is required to prove that someone is sick?

[Benoit Cadieux]

There is no list. CRA does have the flexibility to request any type of documentation that they feel would—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

If the claimant says, "Look, no one told me I had to get a doctor's note, and now I'm no longer sick. I was sick when I got the benefit", then what will CRA then do?

[Benoit Cadieux]

As I said, CRA does have the authority to ask for any type of document. It could be the proof that they were tested for COVID-19. It could be an email from the employer saying that they came into contact with somebody at work and needed to isolate. It could be from the school saying that the school was closed so they have to stay home with their child. It could be any type of documentation.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Must the sickness in question be COVID-19, or could they be sick with something else to get the benefit?

[Benoit Cadieux]

If they are sick, it has to be COVID-19, but it could also be symptoms similar to those of COVID-19 and the person is thus asked to isolate, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

So they would have to provide some documentation to show that they were asked to self-isolate.

[Benoit Cadieux]

Correct.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

On the caregiving benefit, what documentation would a claimant have to provide to prove that a family member was in need of care?

[Benoit Cadieux]

Again, it could be an email from the school indicating that a particular class cannot attend the school because of a case of COVID-19 in the classroom. It could be a day care closure, with an email to parents saying that the day care has to close and therefore the child cannot attend. It could be a facility that a family member was attending.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Right.

[Benoit Cadieux]

You know what I'm saying; yes.