Finance Committee on Dec. 8th, 2021

[Michel Laperrière]

Yes, indeed, we would need tools.

My thanks to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We're moving to the NDP and Mr. Blaikie for two and a half minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

I'll start by expressing some regret that the House business that has caused delays for the committee has made it impossible for the witness from Campaign 2000 to be with us at the moment, and I'll say thank you again to our other witnesses for their availability and their willingness to stick around despite those unforeseen delays.

To the witnesses from FINTRAC, you said that in some of the cases you identified that appeared to involve suspicious activity connected to CERB, one of the indicators was accounts to which people were depositing CERB payments under many different names. I'm wondering about this when we talk about a CERB repayment amnesty for low-income folks. We know that if somebody has stolen someone's identity in order to claim CERB...or in some cases, there were stories about people who went into seniors' blocks and told them that they were eligible—when in fact they weren't—and who were taking a certain amount of their CERB payment as a kind of fee for “helping” them access a government program. I'm using air quotes there because obviously that was fraudulent activity.

Do you believe that a repayment amnesty for low-income folks might help them be more upfront and forthright with government about what happened to them and how it happened, in order to catch some of the real fraudsters who were clearly taking advantage of people?

[Barry MacKillop]

That's a good question. I certainly sympathize and empathize with those who are in those situations and are on low incomes and are being asked or forced to repay any money. I'm not sure that.... When it comes to a broad amnesty, that's certainly well outside the scope of my responsibility, and I don't think I'm well positioned to make any comments with respect to that.

As a Canadian citizen, I would trust CRA, and I would trust what they're doing, how they're setting up the program and what they are doing to help as many Canadians as possible.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's fair enough.

I will take my remaining time to make the point that I do think people often are embarrassed when they're taken advantage of. They're scared when they're financially vulnerable and have to deal with large organizations that they don't usually deal with and they're not familiar with the language. They're afraid of further consequences.

It can make it very difficult for them to co-operate when there's that financial threat, so having an amnesty for folks to be able to tell their story and not fear further repercussions is certainly one element in catching the actual fraudsters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie. That's your time.

Now we're moving to the Conservatives and Mr. Stewart for five minutes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to step in for my colleague just briefly, with your indulgence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Go ahead, Mr. Chambers.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

Perhaps following up, for the chamber and the tourism sector, there are multiple reasons that business revenues may be down. Obviously, of course, the largest contributor would be the current environment of COVID and people's decrease in discretionary spending and travel, but there are other reasons and factors that we haven't spoken about today, and one would be the lack of availability of labour. If you'd like to touch on that, I'd like to give you this opportunity. I know that in my riding there are a number of restaurants in particular, along with other businesses in the hospitality sector, that have had to close or to shorten hours based on availability of labour. If they're not open, it's impossible for them to make revenue, so that would be one factor.

The other would be a government that introduces inconsistent, redundant and confusing rules with respect to travel and the effect that has on decreasing people's willingness to go out and travel or spend money and book to come home. As part of the recovery, I think it's important that we also need to consider the effect that some government programs and rules have on individuals in terms of their willingness to re-enter the travel and tourism markets and to spend money like they did previously.

Could we start with the chamber, if it's easier, and then go to the tourism sector?

[Mark Agnew]

Thank you for the question.

Absolutely, on labour shortages, we hear this time and time again, and not just in the travel and tourism sectors but across the board in many industries. That probably begets a future study for the FINA committee.

In terms of the travel restrictions, absolutely: It has become infinitely more confusing for people to navigate. I'll be honest. Even for people like me, who are supposed to be following this stuff day in and day out, it is becoming more complicated, because it varies by what country you are coming from, how long you have been out of the country and what your mode of transportation is. I saw a journalist tweet out several flow charts recently—not one flow chart, but several flow charts. We shouldn't have to make it this complicated. We need to make sure the system is as coherent and as science-based as possible. Show us the evidence and then show us the data to justify why the rules are what they are.

[Beth Potter]

Thanks, Mark.

I completely agree with what Mark has just said.

There are other things that need to be taken into consideration. Our industry was hit with all of these restrictions, and because of the complete shutdown, the lockdown and the closed borders, we had to lay off an inordinate number of our employees. That has caused some reputational damage. We are now seen as an unstable industry in which to work. We are now going to have do a lot of work to rebuild our reputation as a great place to work and a great place to have a career.

On top of that, you talk about the narrative. Absolutely, we need to look at encouraging Canadians to get back to travelling again. We need to rebuild consumer confidence in travel. One way of doing that is by really encouraging businesses to return to offices. The other way of doing it is having one pan-Canadian system for travel so that we are not causing confusion for the traveller: Once they get into Canada, they're in Canada, and there should not be differences in moving from province to province or from province to territory.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Potter and Mr. Agnew.

I will yield the rest of my remaining time.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Thank you.

Through the chair to the members of the committee, given the testimony today and the business at hand, I think it would be prudent for the committee to invite the Canada Revenue Agency to appear tomorrow or on another day before this bill gets through, because I think that on a lot of questions, they could be overseeing the legislation, and there are a lot of questions we could do well to ask the CRA. I just want to know if I could propose that as a motion to see if we can get support for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

On this point, go ahead, Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I think that perhaps having CRA officials might be a good idea. If the opposition would be amenable to having them tomorrow or Friday, I think that could be arranged.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I think the main point is that we just invite them and try to get them here as quickly as they can come.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Clerk, do we have some room for Friday?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

As you mentioned yesterday, we have the finance minister from 11 until 1 tomorrow and then we have a panel of witnesses from 3:30 to 5:30 with the witnesses that the party submitted to me. For Friday, I have invited the minister of heritage, but I have not heard from the minister of heritage yet. There would be room for CRA to appear at that time if the committee so chooses.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Do you mean on Thursday or on Friday?

[The Clerk]

No, Thursday is full because we have the Minister of Finance from 11 to 1 and then a panel, just like today, from 3:30 until 5:30.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

What do you think, boys?

I move to have CRA invited to appear this week if possible, but if not, then after this week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Go ahead, Ms. Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I have a question. Should we know the specific topic that we will ask CRA?

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

It's anything as long as it is related to this bill.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

It's a big organization, so maybe it should be things specific to this bill, but maybe my colleagues might be also interested in the fraudulence.