Finance Committee on Dec. 8th, 2021

[Barry MacKillop]

There have been some enforcement actions, not necessarily.... As I mentioned earlier, unfortunately, the CERB fraud wouldn't necessarily be the only criminal act that may be committed by these criminals. The offence with which they're charged and the offence for which they're prosecuted are not necessarily CERB-related or fraud-related in this particular case.

There has been some enforcement action taken, I believe, in some provinces. I am not privy to all enforcement action that's taken. Typically, I would read it through the media. While my partners are very good at trying to mention us when FINTRAC is a partner in the overall investigation that's taken place, we're not always mentioned, so I don't always see the end result of the intelligence that we provide. However, I do have confidence that my law enforcement partners across Canada are doing their best to do the investigations.

These investigations can be very complex and they can take time, so we may be in a better position in the future to see what types of actions were taken, what types of investigations were successful, and whether or not there were prosecutions.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I know I speak for myself and perhaps other members of this committee when I say that we look forward to hearing some testimony or getting some information at some point from law enforcement agencies and the CRA on this particular point of fraud and other criminal activity.

Turning to the Chamber of Commerce and the Tourism Industry Association, thank you for joining us. You represent a very large and diverse member base.

As I understand it, there are multiple issues around the reasons a business may need financial support. I don't think any of my colleagues here would dispute the businesses that have raised their hand and those in need. Could you elaborate on a couple of items that we have not spoken about today?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Chambers, that's your time, but it may come up from you or your colleague later in this round.

We'll move over to the Liberals and Mr. Baker.

I understand it's your birthday, Mr. Baker. Happy birthday.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that very much.

[Voices]

Hear, hear!

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm really happy to be here, celebrating with all of you.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

Thanks to all of you for celebrating with me.

My first question is for the tourism association. I'm wondering if you could speak briefly to the impact that the programs proposed in Bill C-2 will have on companies in the tourism sector.

[Beth Potter]

Thank you very much, and through the chair, happy birthday to you.

The impact that this will have is that it will keep doors open. It will keep businesses alive. It will keep people employed. We are looking at a number of businesses, a large swath of businesses, that did not have a great summer as far as revenues are concerned. In fact, this is the second summer that hasn't been good.

We're also looking at businesses in a sector that has been shut down until only recently, and it's one that takes a long time to come back. That's the business events sector. Getting back together, meeting in person, returning to the office and getting those business functions back up and going are the kinds of things that support a lot of our businesses in the shoulder seasons. A lot of those events are not taking place.

Just to give you an example, 3,451 business events took place across Canada in 2019. There were 451 events in 2020, and those 451 took place in the months of January to March, before the pandemic hit our shores. Since then, until about September of this year, that industry has been dark. The lack of revenue and the ongoing low bookings mean we could see an absolutely large layoff of staff and a permanent closure of businesses, which is something we don't want to see.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's very helpful. Thank you.

My next question is much like the previous one and goes to the representatives of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.

In your view, what impact will the programs in Bill C‑2 have on companies in Canada? You have about a minute to answer the question.

[Mark Agnew]

Thank you for the question. Through the chair, happy birthday to you.

Beth talked about a number of things that are important in general terms. Maybe I'll drill down specifically with respect to the rent aspect of this program.

It's not just about paying employees' wages or the fixed overhead costs for businesses. To keep their space under their use, they have to pay the landlord, utilities, and insurance costs, which have gone up as well for a number of companies. Having that portion of these support programs extended is also critical to making sure that they're paying that as well as their employees' wage bills.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's really helpful. Thank you, Mr. Agnew.

I've never been wished happy birthday through the chair before, so I appreciate that very much.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

There's a first time for everything on this committee.

Mr. Agnew, some members of this committee have suggested that there's help in Bill C‑2 for businesses only, and not for Canadian workers. My view is that by protecting businesses from bankruptcy, by subsidizing wages, we're actually supporting Canadian workers.

My question to you is this. Through Bill C‑2 and the programs in Bill C‑2, are we not supporting Canadian workers, and if so, could you describe what you think the impact will be on Canadian workers as a result of the programs in Bill C‑2?

[Mark Agnew]

I may want my colleague Alla to step in here, but I will say that the tag line we always use is that small businesses are the engines of job creation in communities across the country. That's not just a nice talking point; I genuinely do believe it to be true. I'm sure that all of the members around this committee in their constituencies know that to be the case. It is real people who are being employed, who have real bills to pay and real families to support.

Alla, you may want to step in with some of the specifics.

[Alla Drigola Birk]

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

What I will say is that the wage subsidy program is making sure that employees can stay on the payroll. It's protecting jobs and communities, especially where, as Mark said, a lot of these businesses are the lifeblood of the community. They're gathering points. They're the main economic drivers of a community. Making sure that the citizens of the community remain employed is key.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Baker. I know it's your birthday, but that's your time.

We're now moving to the Bloc and Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Laperrière, we know that one of the difficulties that self-employed cultural workers face when they are going through dry spells is access to programs like employment insurance. Because they are self-employed, they are not really considered eligible.

A number of years ago, the Government of Québec recognized the status of artist. Do you feel that instituting the status of artist at federal level could make the life of artists and self-employed cultural workers easier? If so, how?

[Michel Laperrière]

That is a huge question. Actually, Quebec's act needs major adjustments and is currently being reviewed. After all, acts are normally reviewed after a certain number of years.

Federal legislation on the status of the artist would certainly simplify the lives of a number of artists through their unions, of course, that are often defending cases against a number of different producers in the industry.

As for the employment insurance program itself, I feel that everyone has agreed for some years that it is out of date in a number of aspects and must therefore be reviewed. That is certainly the case for self-employed workers, whether they are artists or anything else. That is also part of the work that the government must focus on, because the number of self-employed workers is increasing.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You talked about your structure, which has allowed you to respond quite easily to requests from artists who need donations from the foundation in order to make it through more difficult periods. However, we have not talked a lot about your capacity to absorb a little more of that.

Let's say that the government decides to go with the suggestion we made this morning, which is to set aside a significant amount for the foundation in order to provide assistance to artists. Would your structure be sufficiently robust to respond to an increased demand? What support would you need from the government?

[Michel Laperrière]

I am aware of that announcement that the leader of your party made this morning. If we were to establish the same model with the federal government as the one that we have used with the Government of Québec, it is very clear that some adjustments would have to be made. Normally, as you may know, our foundation responds to many fewer requests per year than we would expect in that case. So…

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You would have to be provided with tools. I understand.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Laperrière.