Finance Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 40 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting on the subject matter of Bill C-19, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application. Per the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on March 10, 2022, all those attending the meeting in person must wear a mask, except for members who are at their place during proceedings.

I'd like to take a few moments to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I would remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room who wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I request that members and witnesses treat each other with mutual respect and decorum.

I would now like to welcome today's witnesses. We have a contingent of officials with us today from 12 agencies and departments. They are the Canada Border Services Agency; Canada Revenue Agency; Correctional Service of Canada; Department of Citizenship and Immigration; Department of Employment and Social Development; Department of Finance; Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development; Department of Industry; Department of Indigenous Services; Department of Justice; Privy Council Office and Treasury Board Secretariat.

Members, with so many agencies and departments, if your question is being directed to a particular agency or department, please make sure that you inform that agency or department how you're directing your question.

Before we move to members' questions, we'll have a formal introduction of our officials by Mr. Nicholas Leswick.

Mr. Leswick, the floor is yours.

[Nicholas Leswick, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Finance]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am Nick Leswick, associate deputy minister at the Department of Finance. I am flanked by other officials from the Department of Finance, in our financial sector policy area and tax policy and social policy areas. We have a number of officials on the line to help navigate the lines of questioning throughout the next hour with officials only, and then the minister will appear for the second hour.

I am here to help quarterback the administration of the meeting. I have no other substantive comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, just in terms of process, can you help me understand how many days we have set aside to review this piece of legislation, which involves $56 billion of new spending?

Today we have, I believe, 56 officials arrayed before us. We have essentially been given one hour to ask them questions, and then we have the minister coming for one hour—not two hours as is normal. Therefore, you can understand the disappointment that we Conservatives have in not being able to exercise the oversight and apply the accountability that should normally be applied to a budget of this magnitude.

Can you tell me how many days have been set aside for us to ask questions of the officials?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Fast.

As of this week we have scheduled today and tomorrow for hearings. We're also scheduled for Thursday, and then we will be setting the schedule moving forward. But the priority is the BIA and keeping to previous years practice in studying the BIA, and the hours that have been put in, be they for hearing from officials, the minister and witnesses, will be in keeping with that tradition.

Just to clarify, we'll be doing parts I to IV tomorrow and part V on Thursday.

MP Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Yes, well, in keeping with tradition, Mr. Chair, the previous chair occupant, Mr. Wayne Easter, used to say, this section will take so much time and we'll go through this number of rounds. Usually there would be some sections where there would be very little interest, so the chair would just ask members to raise their hands. We would find that some sections would go faster and some sections would go slower because of the varying interest of committee members.

I would just say that it was a very good process. Obviously, when you have the minister present, it's a little bit different. A little more structure, I think, holds us all to a bit of a higher standard.

While I do have the floor, Mr. Chair, I move that the Standing Committee on Finance invite the commissioner of the Canada Revenue Agency to discuss the agency's reported handling of advance pricing arrangements, among other things, and that the meeting be at least two hours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Albas, you cannot move a motion on a point of order.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I believe I can. It's my intent, Mr. Chair, just to table it and leave it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

No, you cannot. You could do that when your turn comes up, but at this time you cannot move it.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

All right. Well, then, we'll double up on it and use that time as well, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Albas, you'll have an opportunity.

Yes, we have MP Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I actually wasn't allowed to finish my point of order. I'm questioning if in fact we're doing parts I through IV tomorrow, and then part V on Thursday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That is correct.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

What's left to be done after that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That is—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

You were saying that you have effectively allocated three meetings to complete the study of a bill of this magnitude and this size. Please, don't refer to precedent; this amount of new spending is effectively unprecedented. This and the previous year are unprecedented in terms of the amount of tax dollars that spent and the accountability that should be brought to bear on this kind of legislation.

If we don't do this right, then we're acting irresponsibly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Fast, it is the prerogative then of the committee to decide if we want to continue to have witnesses come in and discuss the BIA.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

As long as you're open to that, and the committee's open to extending these meetings....

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes.

MP Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say exactly that. Absolutely, I agree with Mr. Fast, and I think everybody here agrees on that. The budget implementation act is critical. We are spending a lot of money. There needs to be due oversight and we must have sufficient time.

My understanding is that we have a game plan for this week, Mr. Chair, and I know that on Thursday, we're going to be deciding on what additional meetings we want to have. If it is determined that we need some officials back on any sections as many times as possible, I think we can make that decision on Thursday. I know that I'm very open to that. I agree that we have to make sure we feel very comfortable with what has been introduced and what's in this budget implementation act.

I'd also say, Mr. Chair, I haven't been on the committee for that many years, but I know that sometimes we have our Minister of Finance with us for one hour, sometimes for two hours. I know that it changes depending on the topic and depending on our time limitations.

That's it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Dzerowicz.

With that, members, we'll move to our officials.

We do have the Conservatives. You have six minutes to question our officials.

MP Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Usually, again, Mr. Chair, there would be an introductory summary. I believe they said earlier that they're not going to be giving one today for this section. Is that correct?

[Nicholas Leswick]

I won't be providing any summary. The minister will have opening remarks when she appears in the second hour.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Fair enough. You don't want to outshine the minister. I understand that.

In that case, Mr. Chair, since I do have the floor, let me take care of some business first.

I move that the Standing Committee on Finance invite the commissioner of the Canada Revenue Agency to discuss the agency's reported handling of the advance pricing arrangements, among other things, and that the meeting be at least for two hours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Albas.