Finance Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Do you want to jump in again before my time is over?

Campaign 2000 has done excellent work in advocating for a low-income repayment amnesty on CERB. I think one of the really important points on this file—I think there are some obvious moral arguments, but I think from a financial point of view, the question is how much does the government think it's owed for CERB repayments and how much does it actually anticipate collecting from low-income folks who are being asked to repay this money, and how much in resources does it anticipate spending in order to chase that money that it may well not get back? I appreciate that you may not be in a position to answer that right at the moment, but I would appreciate a written response with those three components for the committee. So what is the outstanding debt for CERB and CRB repayments as the department sees it; how much does it actually expect to get back and over what time period, and how much does it anticipate having to spend in terms of staff time and resources in order to chase that money? I think with those answers, we can get a sense of the value of a CERB low-income repayment amnesty, which certainly needs a better title. I think this is a really live question in terms of how much in government resources is going to be spent over the next five, ten, fifteen or twenty-five years in order to recover a relatively small amount of money that's not going to make a big difference in the life of the government or in the government books but that is going to have huge consequences for the people who are being asked to pay that money back. I would ask for a follow-up in writing on that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Blaikie.

Thank you, Minister.

Since we did that reset to the first round, we're now moving into our second round. I have MP Albas up for five minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here.

Minister, back in the 41st Parliament, I tabled a bill on “Free My Grapes” to break down trade barriers for the wine industry. It was a three-page bill including the cover sheet, the summary and the actual bill. That took an hour in front of the Finance committee that day. Here, you've introduced a 421-page bill and you're here for only an hour. Do you feel that provides ministerial accountability?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

It's very good to see you, Mr. Albas. I won't speak for you, but let me suggest that you may be glad to see in this bill that we're eliminating the excise duty on low-alcohol beer effective July 1, 2022. Preparing for this conversation, I thought of you and I thought that was something I would highlight.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

On a point of order, the question was about the time that's being provided—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

On a point of order, that's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

It's not a point of order, yes.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Well, she didn't answer the question, so....

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

MP Albas, go ahead.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I notice that you didn't answer that.

Second, let's talk about what is in here for wineries. Minister, we're nine weeks before July 1, which is when the exemption for 100% Canadian content ends. Many, many wineries that have opened up since 2007 have never paid a cent in excise and now they will be charged for that.

Minister, your own budget implementation act here, on page 106, talks about a grandfathering for product that is made before. However, supply issues are making it so that people cannot bottle their wine; they can't find the bottles. Do you take some responsibility for this? Will you support an amendment to allow for product that has been made before July 1 but that is not bottled to still be considered excise-exempt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for the question. Look, I think that everyone around this table agrees that the growth of Canada's wine sector over the past 15 years or the past couple of decades is a huge national success story and we support that sector.

Mr. Albas, you're sitting next to Mr. Fast, a former trade minister. I think you will also agree that honouring our international trade obligations is essential to Canada's economy and to our credibility as an international player.

As you know, the excise tax repeal stems from a WTO obligation and a dispute we settled with Australia in July 2020. We committed, as part of that settlement, to the repeal of the exemption by June 30, 2022. I'm sure no member of this committee would wish Canada to be offside on our trade obligations and commitments.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Well, Minister, if you don't do something, many businesses that have never paid this tax will have a huge tax bill, with very little profit from previous years to pay for it. What I would also suggest, Minister, is that the Minister of Agriculture and you have not put forward a replacement program.

Do you take responsibility for that?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

What I take responsibility for, Mr. Albas, is supporting the Canadian economy and Canada's fair and honest participation in the rules-based international trading system. It's important for us to be reliable players who keep our word. This is a dispute we settled with Australia in July 2020.

Let me also point out that, as we announced last year in budget 2021, we will be providing over $100 million to support wineries in adapting to ongoing and emerging challenges.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Again, the wineries say that's not going to match.

Let's move on, Minister.

Page 56 of the BIA refers to an assignment of agreement to housing sales, whereby you collect HST now. Minister, are you aware that this will likely cause housing costs to go up, as well as government revenues?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Our housing plan is about bringing fairness to the system, ensuring that everyone pays their fair share, and cutting down on speculation. The change on assignment sales is a very important part of that.

Again, I think Canadians would be very interested to hear that the Conservative Party supports speculation in the housing sector. We certainly do not. We think homes should be for Canadian families, not a speculative financial asset.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's the time, MP Albas.

We will now move to the Liberals and MP Baker for five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, and thank you very much, Deputy Prime Minister, for being with us here today.

As we all know, over two months ago, Russia began a full-scale, further invasion of Ukraine. We know that the Ukrainians have been outmanned and outgunned. Despite that, they've shown great courage in defending their homeland. I think that courage has inspired Canadians and people around the world.

Notwithstanding that courage and resolve, the situation in Ukraine is, of course, dire. This is an existential issue for the Ukrainian people. It's a humanitarian disaster, with Russia committing war crimes every day, and committing genocide, in my opinion. It's a threat not only to Ukraine's security but to global and Canadian security.

Ukrainians are not just fighting for themselves—for their own freedom and homeland—but for all of us, and we need to fight for them. You, Deputy Prime Minister, have been helping to lead that fight. Some of that has been in public. Much of that has been behind the scenes, as it is for ministers and MPs in our democracy. I want to thank you for your leadership on this issue. Dyakuyu.

My first question for you is regarding the fact that you allocated $500 million in funding for military aid to Ukraine and $1 billion in loans to Ukraine in the budget. I want to thank you for that. President Zelenskyy indicated that Ukraine urgently needs heavy weapons.

Could you tell us how soon the $500 million in funding could be deployed?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Okay. Dyakuyu.

Thank you very much Mr. Baker for the question.

Look, our Parliament, our political discourse in Canada, is naturally adversarial, and that is part of us being a healthy democracy, but there are issues where we all agree.

I have to say that I'd like to thank you, Yvan, for your work on Ukraine, but I also want to recognize the Conservatives, the Bloc and the NDP for their support of a very strong Canadian position on Ukraine, for the clarity with which Canada has recognized that this war is illegal, that it is barbaric and that war crimes are being committed, and for the unanimous consent on the genocide motion.

I've discussed all of these measures and really the unanimous Canadian support for Ukraine directly with Prime Minister Shmyhal, and it really does make a difference. It makes a difference in terms of encouraging other countries to support Ukraine. It makes a difference for the Ukrainians to know that we as a country are there for them, and that, really, this is one point on which we agree.

Thank you, everyone.

On the military aid, I agree with you, Mr. Baker: It is the Ukrainians who are fighting and dying. They are fighting our fight. It is our responsibility to be sure they have the tools to do the job. That's why we did specifically earmark $500 million in the budget for military aid. That aid is being sent from Canada. Our allies are sending aid as well.

Last week, Minister Anand announced, for example, that Canada has finalized a contract for eight armoured vehicles manufactured by Roshel. As I know you are aware, Canada is also providing M777 howitzers, and we have provided Carl-Gustaf anti-armour ammunition.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister.

Before you commence, MP Baker, the bells are ringing, members. I see that we have the minister for another 15 minutes still. I'm looking for unanimous consent to continue.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We have unanimous consent.

Continue, MP Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Do I have about 40 seconds? Is that right, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have about a minute, yes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Minister, if the BIA were passed, it would allow the Government of Canada to seize and cause the forfeiture and disposal of assets held by sanctioned people and entities.

In the remaining time, could you speak to why you included the measure in the BIA this year? Do you know what the approximate value is of the assets that are held by those people and entities sanctioned by Canada because of their support for Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

I'm asking this because I'm interested in knowing how much in assets Canada could possibly seize.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

This is a very important part of the BIA. It is a new step when it comes to the reach of sanctions. It's an area where Canada is definitely providing leadership to our allies around the world. We moved first, and we're now seeing other partners also put forward similar legislation.

I will point out, Mr. Baker, that just a few days after we tabled the budget announcing that we intended to do this, President Zelenskyy addressed a group at the World Bank and called on countries to put forward such legislation. The fact is, rebuilding Ukraine will cost tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars. It is highly appropriate for some of that funding to come from the seized assets of the country that has been doing the destroying and the killing.