Finance Committee on Dec. 9th, 2021

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I have a question for Mr. Leswick. Does he know the total debt, public and private, that exists in Canada today?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I believe the rule is that the questions go to me here.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

He is a witness. I just thought he might have the number.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Witnesses do have the....

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Questions can be posed to him.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes, they can.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Okay, Nick. Go ahead if you wish.

[Nicholas Leswick, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Finance]

I apologize to the member. I don't have that number at my fingertips.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Well, it's a pretty important number. I'm amazed that a Minister of Finance and a senior finance official would not know how much debt there is in Canada today.

What would be the total cost if there were a 1% average increase of interest rates on Canada's national debt per year? I just want the number.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Just let me say that, when we publish the economic and fiscal update on Tuesday, we will include—as we did in the budget and as we always do—downside and upside risk scenarios. Those will include a careful accounting of the impact of higher than expected interest rates.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The question was how much it would cost if interest rates went up even one percentage point on Canada's national debt. This is a number we would expect the government to know on any given day, not to have to wait for a report.

What would it cost for a one percentage point increase in interest rates on Canada's national debt? I want just the number, please.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

The information that is published in the economic and fiscal update, which will be on Tuesday, is market sensitive. We publish it all at the same time. I have not come to this committee for an early reveal of the economic and fiscal update, but all of the numbers are there. I do want to say, because it is important—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Based on your most recent publication, what's the number?

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I have a point of order.

Mr. Chair, you made a ruling that the minister is to be allowed to answer the questions. Once again, Mr. Poilievre is not allowing the minister to answer the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

There is decorum, Mr. Poilievre, and your time is actually up.

We are going to be moving now to the Liberals.

Mr. Baker, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Madam Deputy Prime Minister, thank you for being with us today to answer our questions.

Since the beginning of the COVID‑19 pandemic, the government has protected Canadians with public health measures and vaccines. Canada has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. The government has also provided support to Canadians and businesses to the tune of approximately $289 billion, as of the end of October 2021.

All of these measures have saved lives, kept businesses going through an incredibly challenging time and protected workers. They protected their jobs and they protected their incomes. In my riding of Etobicoke Centre, people express to me constantly that they are grateful and appreciative that the Government of Canada stepped up and provided that support. We had their backs during COVID-19.

You described the measures in Bill C-2 in your remarks as the final pivot. For the constituents of Etobicoke Centre, who are eager to know about C-2 and what supports will be offered, could you explain what the “final pivot” means?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you very much for your hard work, Yvan, and for your constituents in Etobicoke.

The reason we are describing Bill C-2 as the final pivot is that we have come a long way in our fight against COVID. We have come a long way in our fight against the COVID recession, and that is a really good thing.

Notwithstanding some irresponsible partisan posturing, which we hear sometimes in the House and sometimes in committee, it is really important for the economy for Canadians to understand that we have made real progress and that we're going into the end of the year and the beginning of next year with a strong economy and strong economic growth underpinning that with a real tailwind. Keynes talked about animal spirits and their importance in the economy, and that continues to be true today.

I do really want people to come away from today with an understanding that we have done a really good job as a country dealing with what was a devastating economic crisis and what could have been much worse, particularly on jobs but also on a strongly recovering GDP. Canadian households, on average, are in a strong financial position right now. They're in a stronger position than they were before COVID hit on a number of measures. That is good news.

Why, then, is Bill C-2 necessary? It's necessary for two reasons.

First, we know that there are some sectors which, through no fault of their own, are particularly hard hit and just cannot fully reopen. There's tourism and hospitality. We spoke earlier today about the culture sector as well. Our philosophical approach in putting together our COVID support programs has been that we did not want to permit economic scarring. We didn't want Canada's economic muscle to atrophy during the COVID recession, because we knew that if it did, coming back from that recession would be even harder. Bill C-2 is designed to provide that targeted support to the sectors that need it.

The second part of it, which omicron has made even more important, is an insurance policy. We still don't know what's ahead. We're all going to hope—I'm going to knock on wood here—that the smart public health measures that have served us well, and the border measures, will keep omicron under control. Please get vaccinated. Please get your boosters. That's so important as well. However, I think it is really prudent to have lockdown support in our tool box, in case that is needed.

That's the thinking behind Bill C-2, and that's why it is a pivot. It's different from the support needed at the height of the crisis. It does cost less money and that is very important to me, to Nick and to the whole Department of Finance, but it is still necessary to have that little bit of extra support.

I really hope and believe this is the final push.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister.

That's your time, Mr. Baker.

We're moving to the Bloc and Monsieur Ste-Marie for two and a half minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, I'm going to ask my two questions at once, and you can answer them afterwards.

In your opening remarks and in your discussions with my colleague Mr. Blaikie, you talked about the importance of addressing the issue of seniors who receive the guaranteed income supplement (GIS), and who have received the Canada emergency response benefit (CERB) and the CRB. This is also one of our concerns. In fact, we are asking you to treat the CERB as working income, to allow for recalculation in the current year and to allow for repayment over a number of years rather than in the current year.

In your remarks, you also mentioned that, in the next few days, you would be unveiling what the government will do to address the situation. Can you confirm that my understanding is correct?

My second question is this. You said that the government is committed to supporting self‑employed cultural workers and that it is currently working on a program that targets those workers. Can you confirm that the program will be put in place in a timely manner and that it will meet the needs of those workers? I would like to see that commitment made here today.

Thank you, Madam Minister.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for the question.

With respect to the GIS and the CERB, as I said, in terms of the capacity of our technology system, we have found that it is a little complicated. However, I am willing to make a public commitment to you. I agree with you that this is an issue for the most vulnerable seniors. We really are putting a solution in place for those whose GIS benefits were reduced because they received the CERB. We agree that this is a problem, and we are fixing it. I won't go into the details, because—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

We are now moving to the NDP.

Mr. Blaikie, you have two and a half minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Yesterday here at committee, we heard the story of a senior in the Northwest Territories who lost her apartment because of the GIS clawback and who is living out of her car. I want to take a moment to really impress upon you the sense of urgency with which your government has to solve a problem that they've been aware of. I mean, we raised it at the very beginning of August, right in the middle of the summer, and there were some media reports that there were briefings within government as early as May of this year. It's not a new problem. We really do need to solve it before more seniors are out on the street.

This question is with respect to the Canada worker lockdown benefit. Can you tell us, for the period from October 24 to today, what regions in Canada would meet the criteria for a public health lockdown that would trigger the Canada worker lockdown benefit?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I want to quickly talk about the senior you mentioned, because I do think it's an important point and something that I try to think about quite a bit. I try to remember, and I think we all should, that we all have pretty comfortable lives. It's on the public record how much money each one of us makes. I think it's really important for all of us to remember that there are people struggling, and we have to act with an urgency based on an appreciation of those struggles.

You make a good point. I do feel that urgency, and I am personally committed to getting this fixed.

Second, on the lockdown support, that will come in place, and I hope we never have to use the lockdown support. I see it—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

It is a retroactive benefit, but is there any region in the country that would qualify?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I see it as something like the insurance you buy in case your house burns down. That's my feeling about the lockdown support. It is in case public health authorities need to go back to the kinds of lockdowns we had when COVID first hit. I'm an Ontario MP, and the kinds of lockdowns we had in Ontario a year ago and the kinds of lockdowns we had last spring—